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07-24-2023, 11:01 PM | #1 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Boulder
Posts: 1,603
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Here's a mastercut of my views over the years on Dawn Moreno.
What do YOU think of Dawn Moreno? What should her future be in the ARAH title by Larry? Should she get a Classified figure before or after SciFi? Quote:
I really like how this story is going. We had a slow build up and character development of Dawn (almost two years) making her one of the most developed characters in the title - putting her at least in top 10% of characters for depth, and honestly twice as developed as Sean.
Snake-Eyes being gone from the title has changed the team dynamic in a positive way. Now we get a "young Snake-Eyes" who is apprenticed to Storm Shadow and Scarlett, a "young Snake-Eyes" who was a replacement for Storm Shadow and now is a solid connection to the Arashikage future (and past) in a new way. The best part is how neither of them IS Snake-Eyes, but one is primarily a Joe and a military man, and the other is not a Joe (but was a Cobra) and is non-military but is Arashikage. The concepts of "who is the real Snake-Eyes" in this equation is super fun. One of them is externally identical but not internally, the other is the opposite. Yet neither of them ARE and everybody knows it. I also like that Dawn ISN'T being named Snake-Eyes. Quote:
Can I help you find a way to appreciate that wacky method of death? I'm not a Snake-Eyes hater but I am glad he's gone, because he has long been a Wolverine / Batman character and I hate that aspect.
He was too unbelievable. Larry managed to take all this stuff like the alien eye (which he had been mandated by IDW to write into the storyline as I understand the situation now), the giant robots (which were an organic outgrowth of Revanche and managed to retroactively remove Transformers from the late Marvel run), and the "greatest soldier who ever lived / was created" (who seems to have been brought back just for this reason) and blended them all up into a way to overpower Snake-Eyes. This is kind of a statement on the character himself: it took Transformers, Serpentor, aliens, an explosion and a drop to his death to kill Snake-Eyes. It was some of the weirdest Joe stuff I've ever read, and it was surrounded by some of the strongest military stories in Joe history before it and some of the most emotionally-poignant Joe stories directly after it. Snake-Eyes could have had a death which tied directly into the Arashikage saga or which came from his enemies, however he's pretty much helped redeem his enemies except Firefly. I would not have accepted a Snake-Eyes death from Firefly. Instead we got his death at some of the most boundary-stretching elements we have ever had in Joe, and it had to take that much to kill off the character whom Snake-Eyes had become. If it had been the 80s still, a death at the hands of a Red Ninja or Firefly might have worked. Quote:
Sean and Dawn both seem pretty different to me.
Sean is uncomfortable, insecure, and lacks confidence. He was also shown to need a whole squad of super badass Joes watching his back in order to simulate Snake-Eyes' behavior. Dawn is far and away his superior. She was already a capable martial artist three years (in age) before Sean joined the military and started physically training. Now she has artificial muscle memory in a body which was already physically primed for it. She has the training of an experienced warrior in the nimble lithe body of an athletic teenager. I'm also going to argue that she is in better physical shape and strength than Snake-Eyes was at her age. We have no indication that he knew any martial arts or was a physical specimen when he was in High School, in fact his origin strongly suggests he was not. Also she's WAY more angry than he is. Snake-Eyes would never have just randomly assaulted a Red Ninja dojo for no reason. She is pissed off at the world, she's behaving like a teenager, an emotional hot-blooded hormonal female teenager. She has the angry resentments of an adult Snake-Eyes (that's a lot of resentment) bottled up in a psyche which isn't old or mature enough to have built up any coping mechanisms. Larry has been playing with posthumanism in the title almost since the IDW return of ARAH and Dawn seems less of a replacement Snake-Eyes to me than she does a natural outgrowth of those posthumanism themes. I don't expect the Storm Shadow Blue Ninja Simulacrum to be nearly as interesting but I will try and reread the ninja robot story from the DDP Storm Shadow comic this month in case of parallels. Calling Sean or Dawn "Snake-Eyes clones" seems to me to be like calling Storm Shadow and Snake-Eyes "Hard Master clones." Quote:
Has anyone else noticed that all of the younger Joes are children of Springfield? That's been a sudden realization. It's like poetry though, right?
I think one of the strongest parts of this issue is seeing that moment when Snake-Eyes reloads in the hallway in that quick manner. The new artist telegraphed that image well. The entire way that Snake-Eyes dropped off the building and then the motion of events which carried him through the window which we see repeated again in a few pages is pretty outstanding. Seeing Dawn meditate into that moment to get prepared for her siege was fresh. So is this all-out war on the Red Ninjas now? Have we just been set-up to see the return of Firefly in coming issues? So many old plot threads are coming together in a new way. Quote:
Firefly seems like his normal self to me. He's the guy who couldn't take the job, he's full of internal weaknesses. He's just the getaway driver. If he ever seemed like something different it was because we didn't know him yet. Being less-than his image is kind of his whole thing. It does seem like he's heading towards a final end.
The Hardmaster revenge squad is flying in on the freaking Defiant to kick his ass. Apparently it can't function as a regular jet for liftoff: that's a good detail since other writers might just ignore the possibilities of vehicle limitations. Larry has always embraced what the vehicles CAN'T do. Seeing Tommy in this role again was outstanding. The first time we see him working with Joes in the field is in Benhzeen, with the early ninja force. They're clearly acting as off-the-books black ops. The later Ninja Force he is again working with the Joes who are ninjas however he still seems to be only part of the squad, not part of the Joe team. Like Snake-Eyes can bring him along for the ride since Hawk can contract him as a former US soldier. Then in #235 we see Storm Shadow on a LEGIT Joe mission. I suggest to you that this is his first actual Joe mission since he's working with non-ninja personnel (Stalker and Zap). That brings us to #249 where he is being put in an unofficial leadership role within the actual Joe team. This still isn't really a story about Dawn, this is an Arashikage saga milestone. We have redemption arcs for Storm Shadow hitting massive heights, the amends of Zartan are very nearly complete since he has now gotten the Dreadnoks working against Cobra in support of those he has hurt, and we are learning about the history of the clan and their place in the modern world. Stalker and Scarlett are now en route to connect with Dawn, and Sean will get to meet her for the second time. Neither Sean nor Dawn are Snake-Eyes clones: I cannot see them as anything but individuals (and very well developed individuals at that). Hearing Dawn speaking Snake-Eyes' words was fascinating. What the hell is up with Budo? I literally just bought a complete Budo figure, great timing. Here we see him in his version 3 outfit, the armor which never seemed actually viable as a field outfit to me. However he's being called their "secret weapon" and Hawk is taking him along with the "Dawn Retrieval" gang... does this mean his somewhat questionable presence on the Joe team is being viewed by Larry as a balance to "too many ninjas?" Hawk has never been very keen on the ninja presence on the Joe team so this actually makes sense. Stoked to have my letter printed in the same issue that my storyline prediction came true. Quote:
Can I help you find a way to appreciate that wacky method of death? I'm not a Snake-Eyes hater but I am glad he's gone, because he has long been a Wolverine / Batman character and I hate that aspect.
He was too unbelievable. Larry managed to take all this stuff like the alien eye (which he had been mandated by IDW to write into the storyline as I understand the situation now), the giant robots (which were an organic outgrowth of Revanche and managed to retroactively remove Transformers from the late Marvel run), and the "greatest soldier who ever lived / was created" (who seems to have been brought back just for this reason) and blended them all up into a way to overpower Snake-Eyes. This is kind of a statement on the character himself: it took Transformers, Serpentor, aliens, an explosion and a drop to his death to kill Snake-Eyes. It was some of the weirdest Joe stuff I've ever read, and it was surrounded by some of the strongest military stories in Joe history before it and some of the most emotionally-poignant Joe stories directly after it. Snake-Eyes could have had a death which tied directly into the Arashikage saga or which came from his enemies, however he's pretty much helped redeem his enemies except Firefly. I would not have accepted a Snake-Eyes death from Firefly. Instead we got his death at some of the most boundary-stretching elements we have ever had in Joe, and it had to take that much to kill off the character whom Snake-Eyes had become. If it had been the 80s still, a death at the hands of a Red Ninja or Firefly might have worked. Quote:
Sean and Dawn both seem pretty different to me.
Sean is uncomfortable, insecure, and lacks confidence. He was also shown to need a whole squad of super badass Joes watching his back in order to simulate Snake-Eyes' behavior. Dawn is far and away his superior. She was already a capable martial artist three years (in age) before Sean joined the military and started physically training. Now she has artificial muscle memory in a body which was already physically primed for it. She has the training of an experienced warrior in the nimble lithe body of an athletic teenager. I'm also going to argue that she is in better physical shape and strength than Snake-Eyes was at her age. We have no indication that he knew any martial arts or was a physical specimen when he was in High School, in fact his origin strongly suggests he was not. Also she's WAY more angry than he is. Snake-Eyes would never have just randomly assaulted a Red Ninja dojo for no reason. She is pissed off at the world, she's behaving like a teenager, an emotional hot-blooded hormonal female teenager. She has the angry resentments of an adult Snake-Eyes (that's a lot of resentment) bottled up in a psyche which isn't old or mature enough to have built up any coping mechanisms. Larry has been playing with posthumanism in the title almost since the IDW return of ARAH and Dawn seems less of a replacement Snake-Eyes to me than she does a natural outgrowth of those posthumanism themes. I don't expect the Storm Shadow Blue Ninja Simulacrum to be nearly as interesting but I will try and reread the ninja robot story from the DDP Storm Shadow comic this month in case of parallels. Calling Sean or Dawn "Snake-Eyes clones" seems to me to be like calling Storm Shadow and Snake-Eyes "Hard Master clones." Quote:
Firefly seems like his normal self to me. He's the guy who couldn't take the job, he's full of internal weaknesses. He's just the getaway driver. If he ever seemed like something different it was because we didn't know him yet. Being less-than his image is kind of his whole thing. It does seem like he's heading towards a final end.
The Hardmaster revenge squad is flying in on the freaking Defiant to kick his ass. Apparently it can't function as a regular jet for liftoff: that's a good detail since other writers might just ignore the possibilities of vehicle limitations. Larry has always embraced what the vehicles CAN'T do. Seeing Tommy in this role again was outstanding. The first time we see him working with Joes in the field is in Benhzeen, with the early ninja force. They're clearly acting as off-the-books black ops. The later Ninja Force he is again working with the Joes who are ninjas however he still seems to be only part of the squad, not part of the Joe team. Like Snake-Eyes can bring him along for the ride since Hawk can contract him as a former US soldier. Then in #235 we see Storm Shadow on a LEGIT Joe mission. I suggest to you that this is his first actual Joe mission since he's working with non-ninja personnel (Stalker and Zap). That brings us to #249 where he is being put in an unofficial leadership role within the actual Joe team. This still isn't really a story about Dawn, this is an Arashikage saga milestone. We have redemption arcs for Storm Shadow hitting massive heights, the amends of Zartan are very nearly complete since he has now gotten the Dreadnoks working against Cobra in support of those he has hurt, and we are learning about the history of the clan and their place in the modern world. Stalker and Scarlett are now en route to connect with Dawn, and Sean will get to meet her for the second time. Neither Sean nor Dawn are Snake-Eyes clones: I cannot see them as anything but individuals (and very well developed individuals at that). Hearing Dawn speaking Snake-Eyes' words was fascinating. What the hell is up with Budo? I literally just bought a complete Budo figure, great timing. Here we see him in his version 3 outfit, the armor which never seemed actually viable as a field outfit to me. However he's being called their "secret weapon" and Hawk is taking him along with the "Dawn Retrieval" gang... does this mean his somewhat questionable presence on the Joe team is being viewed by Larry as a balance to "too many ninjas?" Hawk has never been very keen on the ninja presence on the Joe team so this actually makes sense. Stoked to have my letter printed in the same issue that my storyline prediction came true. Quote:
Why would anyone want Snake-Eyes to make a comeback? That would be the worst thing to ever happen in ARAH. Dude was our friend and we loved him, and we had the memorial to end all memorials for him. I LOVE the character development with Tommy and Scarlett, seeing my homie Stalker break down in tears during the eulogy.
If Sean and Dawn became Throwdown and Tiger Claw instead of exploring legacy and lineage like we're doing now, wouldn't that just be boring as hell? Neither one of them is Snake-Eyes, and neither one ever will be. The potential of Cobra finding out that Sean is a completely underpowered character is interesting. Dawn is interesting. I feel like people just want to retread the cartoon or something. This is amazing, we are watching a comic we read as kids continue to evolve and now there are no pandering advertising moments being forced on the writer. At least half of the modern ARAH has been some of the best military comics in the line (nostalgia aside) and the ninja aspect goes away for 12 to 16 issues at a time then when it comes back the actual plot line is furthering. We have seen massive plot payoffs for Storm Shadow, Zartan, the son of Wade Collins, I would argue Wade Collins too, and more. I don't like Dawn's costume or the age she is being drawn now, I will put that out there. For the first two years she was in the comic she was being drawn the age she actually is. I also would like to see Sean's costume evolve. Maybe in a year they have new names and different looks, that wouldn't bother me. I also don't want to see Dawn become a GiJoe team member, even one outside the military structure like Storm Shadow is. This property is more lively now in ARAH than it has been in decades. Killing off Snake-Eyes was the best thing to happen to it: why go back to the stale old status quo? It would be cancelled in a year IMO. Quote:
If you're talking about Dawn we need to consider that she was shown to already have an advanced martial arts background before the brainwashing. 17 year old Dawn would have wiped the floor with 17 year old Snake-Eyes. She was good enough that Cobra Commander picked her for his ninja bodyguard, following in the footsteps of Storm Shadow, Slice, and Dice, and Billy. I have no problem believing she was at a much lower tier of ability than any of them at the time, but she didn't go into the brainwashing without a personal high degree of skills and physical toning.
Quote:
Quote:
Here's why I like this arrangement with two Snake-Eyes.
Larry has been writing about transhumanism for almost the entirety of this new "half" of ARAH. Rather than going pure military (as I would have thought he might if I had been asked 5 years ago) he has stayed true to the weird aspects of the original half of the story. He has used memory recording, cybernetics, robots, and used them in a way which is (like it or not) barely futuristic. This is exactly the kind of stuff being worked on right now in the real world: that's where the Blue Ninjas came from. Now we get to look at two versions of legacy characters for Snake-Eyes, the dude who is too often the main star and (let's face it) he's so stale. We get a legacy who is known to us, has history, shares the voiceless, faceless aspect, and has meaning in the grand scheme of GiJoe. He is 100% Snake-Eyes on the outside, 0% on the inside. On the other hand we get a legacy who is not known to us (though she has a more examined origin story NOW than almost any other GiJoe character ever), has a short but dense history, shares none of the physical disabilities of the man, and yet even before getting the memories she was making a place for herself in the lineage of Cobra. She is 0% Snake-Eyes on the outside, 100% on the inside. Now this works for me really well. Which one is the true Snake-Eyes? Neither of them, of course. But if one of them changes the name they BOTH should. Kamakura and Vypra? I'd buy that, but it's not necessary. They're both interesting legacy characters for Snake-Eyes, and he's really not even an interesting enough character on his own to even rate getting a single legacy character, so have two which are mirror opposites of each other is pretty cool to me. I want to see them both change, grow, and evolve. Let them disappear for a year in the story while the military guys get the spotlight, let them go on one or two missions as a team together, then let them continue to change so they aren't static in this role. That's what I would want to see. Stalker, Scarlett, Tommy, and everybody else is getting way more interesting interactions out of the new mix and I like that a lot. It's fresh. Even Firefly got more interesting for a minute, and so what if he went out like a bitch? Firefly has ALWAYS been a bitch. The only thing I'm not happy about in this situation is Dawn joining the team, since I had hoped she would be a rogue agent. That's okay, now we get to see the weirdness of the Joes looking at her in the canteen. It will be weird and that's fun. Quote:
Sure, I can expand on that. This storytelling choice puts Snake-Eyes into a pantheon like Superman, Batman, Wolverine, etc. in a good way instead of a bad way. I love legacy characters, they show that a character has left behind enough of an impact to be emulated: not replaced or supplanted but respected.
Sure, I'll say it again: in my opinion Snake-Eyes was really cool when I was a kid but he just got tiresome in the same way characters like Wolverine, Venom, Batman, all those overexposed characters who just keep going get tiresome. When DDP killed him off I was happy, when they revived him it was a low point. It's not because I hate Snake-Eyes, I really don't. I want to see him preserved as his cool original version and death keeps him that way. I don't want to see Sean become as good as Snake-Eyes, I like the concept of a humanized and fallible guy in that suit. The issue where the Joes had all the sneaky cut-throat scary Joes in the woods at the cabin was awesome. Seeing Scarlett looking at Sean on the Staten Island Ferry is crazy. I love to talk about GiJoe, there's so much. Dawn also is not as good as Snake-Eyes, she has a ton of liabilities. She's super aggressive and emotionally unbalanced. Another person just wrote about how this angry Snake-Eyes coming out of her ruins the character for him, but that's not Snake-Eyes, it's her filtering his thoughts. He was a hardened warrior who had survived tragedy after tragedy, she is just a really good martial artist who got his horrible baggage dumped on her. Yes, I find that interesting. You might examine other potential reasons you don't like her. Of the two, Sean is the Mary Sue. We know that Dawn has an extensive history of martial arts training, when we meet her she is already capable of impressing Cobra Commander enough to hire her. I grant you that he's probably not highly discerning but he's been around martial artists for decades. Sean though showed up as a soldier boy when he joined the Joes and then suddenly was a ninja half a dozen issues later. I like him because he's got a history we can hold on to, he's a character much like Billy. I guess there are a lot of people who hated Billy, too, but I can't remember him being called a Mary Sue. That seems to be a term only used for female characters. Lol. Quoted because it was awesome.
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07-24-2023, 11:27 PM | #2 |
Cyber Warfare Specialist
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 3,661
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I think killing Snake Eyes was a kinda lazy way to grab some headlines and cash. Don?t kill him off and bring her on as an apprentice or adversary. Folks won?t resent the character so much then.
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07-25-2023, 04:58 AM | #3 |
Dark Lord of the Mods
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7,706
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I liked Dawn a lot more before she had Snake Eyes's memories downloaded into her brain. Now, I kind of hate her.
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"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubblegum." YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5i...9tb4Exi6R8cnvA Instagram Page: https://www.instagram.com/lordmordred/?hl=en |
07-25-2023, 07:29 AM | #4 |
Talking Joe Podcast guy
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: UK
Posts: 211
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I get some of the criticism, including the Mary sue overpowered elements before she had Snake Eyes memories. There wasnt enough done initially to explain how she got to be as skilled as she was. With his memories it makes more sense but her story arc has at points seemed to be a bit rudderless at times.
But overall I like the character and hope that the Classified team prioritise her for a release. It seems crazy we still havent had her as an official figure release in any form (but have had a statue) |
07-25-2023, 07:35 AM | #5 |
Cyber Warfare Specialist
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 3,661
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Quote:
I get some of the criticism, including the Mary sue overpowered elements before she had Snake Eyes memories. There wasnt enough done initially to explain how she got to be as skilled as she was. With his memories it makes more sense but her story arc has at points seemed to be a bit rudderless at times.
But overall I like the character and hope that the Classified team prioritise her for a release. It seems crazy we still havent had her as an official figure release in any form (but have had a statue) |
07-25-2023, 07:51 AM | #6 |
Balloon Bear
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Delaware Valley
Posts: 1,778
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Is there a good graphic novel or two that covers this character's arc?
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07-25-2023, 08:38 AM | #7 |
Christian Soldier
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,257
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Not a good one. Garbage.
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07-25-2023, 10:14 AM | #8 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 8,616
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I hate the character. You want a female to eventually take over for a dead Snake-Eyes as the team badass ninja? Use Scarlett. Just like if Storm Shadow died...use Billy or if you want a woman Jinx.
Then again, I always hated the massive amount of ninjas in GI Joe. Snake Eyes finally dying opened up a world of a new dynamic. Sean and Scarlett now had to develop on their own. Instead Dawn became Snake-Eyes then Sean became Snake-Eyes then Snake-Eyes became Snake-Eyes again. |
07-25-2023, 11:37 AM | #9 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 791
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I don't care about post #155 Hamaverse too much, I got a general idea of the things going on, but it always seemed clear it'd circle back to Snake Eyes.
Though the particulars are different, Dawn reminds me a bit of X-23 in concept as the girl to step in for Wolverine/Snake Eyes. She should definitely get a Classified figure, though, regardless what you think of her. |
07-25-2023, 11:50 AM | #10 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 779
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Sometimes I think Larry creates new characters for the sake of diversity when the story could have easily worked with an existing character--so minus the need to create a (usually boring) background story. That said, I really like Dawn's costume and I wish she would have remained Cobra and been given a cool codename. (Larry's habit of taking cool villains and turning them into Joes or Joe allies is a big pet peeve of mine.)
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