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03-12-2009, 12:11 PM | #3801 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Oooh, here's something to add to that. Was Snake Eyes originally intended to be a ninja or just a commando with a strong martial arts background? How much say did Hama have over the development of this ninja aspect in Snake Eyes? Was it something he wanted to develop?
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03-12-2009, 12:21 PM | #3802 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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And can add in something about all things being interconnected to Snake-Eyes (Cobra Commander, Firefly, Zartan, etc..).
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03-12-2009, 12:29 PM | #3803 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hope, ME
Posts: 4,736
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Quote:
Oooh, here's something to add to that. Was Snake Eyes originally intended to be a ninja or just a commando with a strong martial arts background? How much say did Hama have over the development of this ninja aspect in Snake Eyes? Was it something he wanted to develop?
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03-12-2009, 03:53 PM | #3804 |
Field Commander
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitefish Montana
Posts: 33
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Oliverbox, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree, because I think you are wrong about many things.
When you have read all of the books about the history of GIJOE, and the many interviews with the heads of Hasbro from the early 80s, plus the older interviews with Mr. Hama from when he was actually closer to the original material, as well as the interviews with the editors from Marvel at the time you will realize that Mr. Hama was handed ideas that were mostly out of his control. His job was to give it a mythology that could be used to as a cheap but effective way to combat the Star Wars movies which were the ultimate advertisement for the Star Wars figures produced by Hasbro's then rival Kenner. One of the Leads behind Joe at Hasbro specifically pitched it to the company head stating: "We don't have a movie, but we have a book!" At the time even the lowest selling comics sold at least 400k, and the highest sellers were in the millions. Not a bad plan really.(Within the last 12 or so years Hasbro bought out Kenner, and produces both lines now, for those of you that weren't aware.) The Marvel comic, which we all know had its origins with Hama's proposal for Fury Force debuted almost simultaneously with the toyline, and was advertised on national television(a first ever for a comic) resulting in a near sell out for both the toys and the comic.(which quickly went into a second printing, also unheard of at the time) From the beginning Mr. Hama was handed a piece of paper with a prototype design, a name, a rank, and a job, it was then up to him to flesh out the characters, and write stories featuring them. He had little or nothing to do with a character's rank, or specialty. Any attempts to improve those characters' original designs and specifics were undertaken by Mr. Hama entirely on his own volition, and sometimes with no result. (For the record, and I stress that I am not knocking your like of Claymore, Claymore was a Toys R US exclusively released character, that was kitbashed, and only ever released once in the entire history of GIJOE ARAH. He never appeared in the Sunbow cartoon, or the Marvel comic, and for a long while I doubt Mr. Hama even knew he existed, so while he made fun of his poorly written filecard, I doubt he has any malice for the character.) He questioned Zap's use of a bazooka, and he questioned Bazooka's name, neither of which Hasbro listened to. He told Hasbro that Steeler would have to be an officer in order to have the job of Tank Commander, which DID result in Steeler's promotion from Sergeant to Lieutenant for the final filecard. Hasbro wanted to have fluffy teddy bear characters to FIGHT GIJOE, and to equal the Ewoks from Star Wars. Mr. Hama told Hasbro they were nuts if they thought parents would think highly of the idea of the Good Guys shooting at teddy bears, and told Hasbro to make them a biker gang instead, which Hasbro acquiesced to. Mr. Hama was forced to use Serpentor, but tried to make the story as realistic as possible based on theoretical cloning and genetic engineering papers of the time. He was again forced to use Cobra Commander's new battle armor, which he turned into the story of Fred VII, which used the armor, but not technically for Cobra Commander. Mr. Hama drew the line at Cobra La, which worked out between the fact that he had been proven as a valuable commodity with the success of the comic, and with the fact that the animated movie largely failed in its attempts at a new status quo for GIJOE. Later Hasbro forced Hama to use all of the latest Eco Warriors, D.E.F., Star Brigade, Ninja Force, and neon garbage, because that is what was happening in the toyline, and the comic, no matter how good a job Hama did, or how well it sold, was just a marketing tool for Hasbro. Though those products were poor, it was no different than Hasbro forcing Mr. Hama to use any new characters or vehicles over the years. This was combined with Marvel's part as the comic publisher, and whose only profit on Joe came from the comic, so they wanted the comic to sell. In some cases you put Hasbro and Marvel together and you get GIJOE/Transformers, which again, Hama didn't want to do, but was made to for "sales". In the early years Marvel's attempts to garner sales resulted in Marvel saying "This Snake-Eyes gets a lot of fan mail, he needs to be in the book more(which is EXACTLY what they do with Wolverine, the concept of "give them more of what they like" isn't exactly unheard of)and in the later years resulted in Marvel eschewing the traditional fairly realistic art of Joe for the "Liefeld" clones of the time like Andrew Wildman, and later even worse low quality art. Hasbro and Marvel ruined the last several years of GIJOE, not Larry Hama. I don't blame Hama for any of it. Not a bit. He did his best, and most of the time his best turned a commercial child's toyline, and and a fad following comic publisher's attempt to cash in on the successful toys into something that is not only a great read to this day, but something that has endured and actually means something more than just a hunks of plastic that sold well in the 80s. Also, I have read every book you have mentioned Oliverbox, plus a few others, and combined with the latest "info" on the Net, you couldn't be more wrong about Delta, and your claims that Mr. Hama doesn't know what he is talking about. As far as anyone outside of Delta can ascertain Delta does NOT operate like even a standard Special Forces unit. If an E-5 has more expertise and experience related to a mission, he WILL be in charge of that mission, placed over an E-7, possibly an E-8. Their MISSION command structure is need based, and led by the best man for the job, no matter his rank. Delta does not USUALLY wear standardized uniforms, and never any rank or insignia, often wearing civillian clothing even, and normally their attire and equipment and weaponry is highly customized, and they can maintain hairstyles and facial hair beyond what standard regs allow. This to me seems to fit GIJOE like a glove. Devgru is similar, though not identical. Even with all of that said, not once did Mr. Hama state or imply that an E-5 would be giving orders to an officer, more importantly, it never occurred in all of the comics I just scoured through. The orders were almost always given by Hawk, Stalker, Duke, Flint, Falcon, Scarlett, Gung-Ho, and Wild Bill, and at no time was I able to find an instance of them giving an order to someone of greater rank. Equal, yes. Greater, No. I am sorry to have somehow offended you Oliverbox, and never meant to be confrontational. However, I strongly disagree with some of your statements, and could not in good conscience let them stand as if true, with no alternative point of view. You have been on this board and thread far longer than I, and have many friends here, I don't wish to continue to cause confrontation or disagreement, so I will refrain from participating from here on out. |
03-12-2009, 03:55 PM | #3805 |
Field Commander
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitefish Montana
Posts: 33
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Before I go, for those of you interested in the origins of the vehicles for GIJOE, but who have not yet seen the related thread, here you go:
http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-jo...uler-tank.html |
03-12-2009, 04:01 PM | #3806 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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I wouldn't call Wildman a Liefeld clone, if I remember right Wildman was around LONG before Liefeld came on the scene.
G.I. Joe is what got me into comics. I've always maintained that Special Missions was the type of Joe stories that Hama wanted to tell.
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03-12-2009, 04:01 PM | #3807 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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Quote:
Don't leave. Having differing opinions is what makes the thread work better. Causes people to think.
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Join the New England G.I. Joe Collector's Group: Battleforce New England Join the March of Cobra. Read the epic adventure on Kindle Worlds and visit the page to learn more. https://www.facebook.com/marchofcobra/ |
03-12-2009, 04:03 PM | #3808 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hope, ME
Posts: 4,736
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Personally, I'm happy to have you here - as long as dissenting viewpoints can be presented from a logical standpoint and don't devolve into name-calling or the like, I see no reason for it to not exist. Besides, it's no fun if everyone does nothing but agree with Oliver all day.
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03-12-2009, 04:13 PM | #3809 |
Field Commander
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitefish Montana
Posts: 33
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Troynos, I said I was going to stop, but just quickly- Rob Liefeld's first major work was for DC in 1988, this led to New Mutants and X-Force at Marvel by 1990, where he became quite popular, reaching "superstar" status. Andrew Wildman started work in the late 80s as well, but primarily in Britain, and didn't join GIJOE until after Liefeld was well known in the States, so around 92-93. At this time Marvel was actively trying to get all of their artists to imitate a Liefeld or Jim Lee style. They believed that was the way to sell comics. Wildman didn't start out like that, though it can and has been argued that his art was too superheroish for GIJOE, even at the beginning, but he rapidly morphed into a Liefeld/Lee mimic, which can be further seen when you examine his X-Men adventures work. It was unfortunate, because his later art doesn't compare to Lee's Liefeld's or even his own original style. The later artists were far worse I will admit.
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03-12-2009, 04:15 PM | #3810 |
Field Commander
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitefish Montana
Posts: 33
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I agree about Special Missions, though I think he would like to have told those types of stories with larger story arcs.
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