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09-22-2022, 11:02 AM | #71 |
He Who Remains
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Florida
Posts: 9,286
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It sure doesn't look like this is going to hit the early bird offering. There's only about 36 hours left and they still need about 4,000 more backers.
If this DOESN'T get the early bird extra, do people start canceling orders? Could this thing start going in reverse like the Rancor did?
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09-22-2022, 11:19 AM | #72 |
Porkchop Sandwiches!
Join Date: Sep 2021
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The second reason is, despite people suggesting otherwise, consumers and producers do have a symbiotic relationship, and that relationship is built on some type of trust. When that trust is healthy, we tend to lend leeway to Hasbro when they raise prices by a dollar.
Conversely, when that trust is sick, and they produce sub-par products at ever increasing prices, we are less inclined to accept price increases. Quote:
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So, if you want me to pay what you're asking, you need to fucking deliver. Sorry, charging me three dollars more for TVC and pumping out slightly paint altered repack after repack is not building healthy trust. All the lies and moving goal posts Hasbro has lobbied over the last decade have not built a healthy trust.
So, yeah, asking $350 for a fucking 1:12 car is a bit fucking insane.[/QUOTE] |
09-22-2022, 11:30 AM | #73 |
He Who Remains
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Florida
Posts: 9,286
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So far, Haslabs on the secondary market sell for about twice the original price on eBay. (Or sometimes a little more than twice) As the years go by, they become more scarce and that price rises, which we are seeing with the Barge.
Does anyone foresee folks willing to pay $700 for that Ghost Rider car on eBay a year from now?
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09-22-2022, 11:36 AM | #74 |
A Cimmerian
Join Date: Jun 2016
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We were discussing Joe o-rings vs. Operation:Recall, etc., so yes, totally comparable product.
I get that we collectors are a passionate bunch, but I hear emotional arguments like this being made all the time. Prices will continue to rise as long as demand remains constant or growing. Period. Trust has nothing to do with it. Theoretically, there is a point where the price rises so high it begins to kill demand, at which point, prices will come down. These items are either have sufficient perceived value, or they don't. But as long as collectors keep buying them, don't expect prices to come down. They will only make more if more demand is there, which is questionable in the case of the o-rings. And they don't control the retail space, the retailers do. They only get to put the specific products the retailers want from them in stores. Just because Classified gets a couple of pegs doesn't mean they can sneak in o-rings or vehicles, so I'm not sure what you mean by "retail space access". I think your second statement partially answers your first. The kids of today seem a lot more fickle than we were at that age. I don't think Hasbro can bank on brand loyalty long-term the way they might have once. 100% in agreement here. Not sure what "lies and moving goal posts" refers to, but again, trust has nothing to do with it. Either the figures are worth the money or they aren't. Buy 'em or don't. Hasbro doesn't care about our feelings/trust. The only thing they respond to is money. If we really want things to get better, enough of us have to collectively stop buying substandard product. But that's always been a tough proposition. So, yeah, asking $350 for a fucking 1:12 car is a bit fucking insane. Perhaps, I was too wordy. Hasbro is taking advantage of us, but we've yet to give them a reason not to. I'm not addressing specific claims concerning o-rings- I'm speaking to pricing in general, and provided an example to that effect. If Hasbro wants to charge boutique prices, then they should offer boutique comparable products-they absolutely do not. By access to retail space, I mean that I can buy Hasbro products in a store. People can discover Hasbro products in a major retailer such as Target or Wal-Mart. I recognize Hasbro doesn't control the retail space, but they are given retail representation, which they have accrued over decades of business relationships, which are built on a type of trust. In this case, the proven ability to sell products. BFS, MTF, DNL, and any number of other boutique figure makers do not have that access, and will never have that access. Additionally, that access, their years of business, gives them presence to more consumers, as well. More consumers means more units. It's always been a pretty well-established business practice that moving more units, even if at a slightly lower price, is better than moving a smaller amount of units at a slightly higher price. Obviously, this trend wouldn't apply to a Haslab, but the radical increases in pricing haven't been limited to just Haslab. It is also well established that lower prices increase demand, and Hasbro isn't really suffering from an inability to meet demand as it is. Prices don't swell up and down on figures on the shelves, so supply/demand principles don't apply in the same way. When you preset a price for a product that hasn't been manufactured yet, you control supply, and demand is a non issue because you can meet it to your heart's content. Haslab is a shining example of this principle. The cost of the haslab is not influenced by demand, only whether it gets made. If it doesn't fund, they won't try again at a lower price point. The threat of missing out forever is one of the driving factors they rely to get people to overpay for this shit. Professional trust isn't an emotional argument. We support vendors we trust will serve us well. The main issue is that Hasbro does have a monopoly to an extent, so unlike a mechanic or accountant, whom I can fire when that trust is violated, my options for buying Star Wars or Marvel figures are much more limited (not non-existent, but there's a gulf between a $25 Legends figure and a $100 SH Figuarts). Hasbro recognizes this, and takes full advantage. What I mean by lies and moving goal posts is that there's always a reason Hasbro has to fuck us over. Tooling used to be their bell cow. Tooling is expensive, so prices go up. Oh, wait, we've been selling figures built on the same tooling for over a decade? Well, the cost of plastic has gone up, so prices are going up. Oh, wait, we're using less plastic, blah, blah, fucking blah... At least the current state of shipping logistics is verifiable as true. But the other fact remains that you can't continue to raise prices and blame it on other factors (you know, cause Hasbro is a fucking victim, too), and then continue to report steady profit growth, and in some cases, record profit growth. And sure, profits should grow, but everyone is struggling and all these fuckers are still off to the races. I'm obviously digressing quite a bit here, as I'm not required to buy any of this stuff, but again, it does feel a little out of touch on their part, to say the least. And this isn't Hasbro specific, but I guess as a consumer, I'm tired of the burden constantly being on me to foot every bill these multi-million dollar companies have. There is no cost of doing business for them anymore. More and more, customer service has turned away from customer satisfaction, and more toward vendor aggrandization. Aren't you fucking glad we're here so you have someone to give your money to. We're doing you a favor by making your money off of our goods and services. It's fucking gross. Haslabs also falter in the perceived value component. For a KS, the idea is the more people that buy in, the better the value becomes for everyone. MTF, for example, they offer a fair price for an "all-in", and the more people that come in, the more you can get at certain package levels. Conversely, Haslab's tiers don't add value in that sense- most people are thinking this might be worth it if we hit every tier. I doubt anyone is thinking, this car is worth 350 and everything else is gravy. Which is why I find it fundamentally moronic that they don't list all the tiers/stretch goals right away.
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09-22-2022, 11:41 AM | #75 |
A Cimmerian
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Mountain of Power
Posts: 10,999
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Quote:
So far, Haslabs on the secondary market sell for about twice the original price on eBay. (Or sometimes a little more than twice) As the years go by, they become more scarce and that price rises, which we are seeing with the Barge.
Does anyone foresee folks willing to pay $700 for that Ghost Rider car on eBay a year from now?
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09-22-2022, 12:02 PM | #76 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,442
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Quote:
What I mean by lies and moving goal posts is that there's always a reason Hasbro has to fuck us over. Tooling used to be their bell cow. Tooling is expensive, so prices go up. Oh, wait, we've been selling figures built on the same tooling for over a decade? Well, the cost of plastic has gone up, so prices are going up. Oh, wait, we're using less plastic, blah, blah, fucking blah..
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09-22-2022, 12:08 PM | #77 |
A Cimmerian
Join Date: Jun 2016
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A perfect example
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09-22-2022, 12:21 PM | #78 |
Porkchop Sandwiches!
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 806
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Quote:
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By access to retail space, I mean that I can buy Hasbro products in a store. People can discover Hasbro products in a major retailer such as Target or Wal-Mart. I recognize Hasbro doesn't control the retail space, but they are given retail representation, which they have accrued over decades of business relationships, which are built on a type of trust. In this case, the proven ability to sell products.
Quote:
Quote:
Professional trust isn't an emotional argument. We support vendors we trust will serve us well. The main issue is that Hasbro does have a monopoly to an extent, so unlike a mechanic or accountant, whom I can fire when that trust is violated, my options for buying Star Wars or Marvel figures are much more limited (not non-existent, but there's a gulf between a $25 Legends figure and a $100 SH Figuarts). Hasbro recognizes this, and takes full advantage.
Quote:
What I mean by lies and moving goal posts is that there's always a reason Hasbro has to fuck us over. Tooling used to be their bell cow. Tooling is expensive, so prices go up. Oh, wait, we've been selling figures built on the same tooling for over a decade? Well, the cost of plastic has gone up, so prices are going up. Oh, wait, we're using less plastic, blah, blah, fucking blah...
At least the current state of shipping logistics is verifiable as true. But the other fact remains that you can't continue to raise prices and blame it on other factors (you know, cause Hasbro is a fucking victim, too), and then continue to report steady profit growth, and in some cases, record profit growth. And sure, profits should grow, but everyone is struggling and all these fuckers are still off to the races. I'm obviously digressing quite a bit here, as I'm not required to buy any of this stuff, but again, it does feel a little out of touch on their part, to say the least. Quote:
And this isn't Hasbro specific, but I guess as a consumer, I'm tired of the burden constantly being on me to foot every bill these multi-million dollar companies have. There is no cost of doing business for them anymore. More and more, customer service has turned away from customer satisfaction, and more toward vendor aggrandization. Aren't you fucking glad we're here so you have someone to give your money to. We're doing you a favor by making your money off of our goods and services. It's fucking gross.
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09-22-2022, 12:37 PM | #79 |
Fartbutt McGillicuddy
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: EARF
Posts: 4,427
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I asked specifically how Hasbro can leverage economies of scale to reduce prices WITHOUT increasing the production quantities on the o-ring products. You still haven't answered that.
This is your question, right? hasbro wants a product. the factory says "we need 2k of the product minimum to make at this much." hasbro says "ok" or "no". if they say "ok" they continue with production. if they say "no" then they find someone who will at another factory they have product made out of. then with hasbro's relationships with the retail stores they "crowdfunded" with, they can negotiate a price to sell the product. walmart as an example tends to have more leverage with how much something is sold at in their store. when i say "leverage" as axonrey said, they're the only game in town with some products, so, if this factory doesnt want to make 2k star wars (example. not the center of my argument) figures for the amount hasbro wants to pay, that factory loses out on potentially making star wars figures for hasbro exclusively. walmart and target both have their own exclusive figures on occasion, "if you sell these figures for this much we'll make an exclusive figure for you". they arent going to be stupid enough to say "no we do not want star wars toys on our toy shelves." this is how the supply chain works for anything. "nobody action figure kickstarter" cant say "no" and they cant make walmart pay 30 bucks for their untested toyline. the factory is going to tell them what it's going to take to produce it and they're going to have a more difficult time to produce those funds, and walmart is going to set the price (if it ever reaches walmart). Last edited by THEDARKONE508; 09-22-2022 at 12:40 PM.. |
09-22-2022, 12:39 PM | #80 |
Porkchop Sandwiches!
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 806
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Quote:
Haslabs also falter in the perceived value component. For a KS, the idea is the more people that buy in, the better the value becomes for everyone. MTF, for example, they offer a fair price for an "all-in", and the more people that come in, the more you can get at certain package levels.
Conversely, Haslab's tiers don't add value in that sense- most people are thinking this might be worth it if we hit every tier. I doubt anyone is thinking, this car is worth 350 and everything else is gravy. Which is why I find it fundamentally moronic that they don't list all the tiers/stretch goals right away. In the case of the HISS, the minimum was 8,000 which means that 8,000 units was the bare minimum they needed to produce to hit an (YMMV) acceptible price point. Cost + profit/8000=$300. But it tripled its goal, and we all know that thanks to economies of scale, it costs less per unit to make 24,000 than it does 8,000. It's far simpler and less confusing to just throw in more product for the same quoted price than it would be to adjust the price down on some sliding scale. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a legal barrier to changing the price after the fact as well. In both caaes, the more people that sign up, the more product we get. And staggering the tier announcements, while perhaps frustrating, is smart in that it allows them to inject fresh incentive at various points in the campaign. |
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