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09-15-2021, 09:33 PM | #521 |
just a Marine
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: central PA
Posts: 1,681
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Wow. Been a while guys, been really busy. I lurk now and then, mostly to see if there any new kickstarters or toys out there.
So, this may have been one of the most cordial internet debates I have seen. So, back to the original question, would any Joes fight the vaccine? Hard to say, but I was in the service during the anthrax debacle. by and large, there was enough concern and outcry that the services suspended the program and changed it so the only ones getting it were people who might truly come into contact with anthrax. I don't recall anyone being court martialed for questioning it, which I have seen people (I don't think in thread) call for. I currently work at a college that commissions young adults into the armed forces. We have boats but are not Annapolis. The students are about 85% vaccinated which, for another couple of weeks, is still voluntary. Much of the objection is said to be religious, but in reality, I think it is simply that this is a new vaccine that has not been around that long. A few unvax had covid and are just waiting for it to be mandatory. One thing though, we have done a lot of testing. I would say over the last 18 months, about 1/4 to 1/3 tested positive. Communal living and all. Of those, well less than 10% had symptoms. Of course,these are healthy young adults. Also interesting, a couple weeks ago, we had a large social event and a student attended who was infected so we tested every who went. We got about10% positive, all asymptomatic except the original exposure that triggered the testing. Of those positives, 3/4 were vaccinated, so fairly close to the proportion vaccinated. However, we have also locked the students down for months at a time. Because of the training program we have, students who had been away at sea ended up in a situation where they were potentially locked down either on a ship or at school for 13 months. We contract health services from a major civilian healthcare company. This company's head of infectious diseases routinely meets with us to discuss covid measures. He advocates the vaccine, but recently said we are vaccinating for a variant that is no longer a threat. Those are his words, not mine. I am vaccinated, but I loathe some of these recent mandates. if I am vaccinated, why do I care if you are? Variants right? Well, last number I saw, and maybe this was wrong or outdated, 85% of the third world is not vaccinated. The US being 75 instead of 85% vaccinated is not going to cause variants the way other countries that are mostly not vaccinated will. Especially with our porous southern border, and even without that, we allow people to visit here. I have become very disgusted, however, with the maskers. Do you really believe, randomly constructed masks made of random materials, and worn in various manners is protecting you? Oh wait, it doesn't protect you, it protects others. Well, do you really believe that? And if you are concerned about your safety, get the vaccine so you don't have to worry about others wearing masks. I also read a study a few months ago on social distancing. the study results basically said that masking and social distancing indoors are irrelevant compared to ventiation. Unless a building has a serious HVAC that exchanges the air regularly, the virus builds up in the air to the point masking and social distancing are irrelevant. A doctor friend asked me if I had covid. As far as I know, I did not. He found it strange that I could spend so much time in close proximity to a population with a high positivity rate. So maybe I did, and was asymptomatic. I know I put a lot of stuff here, but I guess what I would say is, if you think the vaccine works get it. But every restriction on our liberty is used as justification for further restrictions. We can require vaccines for school, so why not for everything? We can ban (or severely restrict to the wealthy) machine guns, so why can't we do that for handguns? I see people say things like, if you think a vaccine mandate is tyranny, you must think traffic rules are tyrrany. Really? Your argument is that since we have traffic rules, the govt can pass any restrictions they want? Anyway, I hope everyone is doing well. |
09-15-2021, 09:57 PM | #522 |
Bill Cosplay
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Staying clear of knee-jerk nerds.
Posts: 5,873
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Quote:
Wow. Been a while guys, been really busy. I lurk now and then, mostly to see if there any new kickstarters or toys out there.
So, this may have been one of the most cordial internet debates I have seen. So, back to the original question, would any Joes fight the vaccine? Hard to say, but I was in the service during the anthrax debacle. by and large, there was enough concern and outcry that the services suspended the program and changed it so the only ones getting it were people who might truly come into contact with anthrax. I don't recall anyone being court martialed for questioning it, which I have seen people (I don't think in thread) call for. I currently work at a college that commissions young adults into the armed forces. We have boats but are not Annapolis. The students are about 85% vaccinated which, for another couple of weeks, is still voluntary. Much of the objection is said to be religious, but in reality, I think it is simply that this is a new vaccine that has not been around that long. A few unvax had covid and are just waiting for it to be mandatory. One thing though, we have done a lot of testing. I would say over the last 18 months, about 1/4 to 1/3 tested positive. Communal living and all. Of those, well less than 10% had symptoms. Of course,these are healthy young adults. Also interesting, a couple weeks ago, we had a large social event and a student attended who was infected so we tested every who went. We got about10% positive, all asymptomatic except the original exposure that triggered the testing. Of those positives, 3/4 were vaccinated, so fairly close to the proportion vaccinated. However, we have also locked the students down for months at a time. Because of the training program we have, students who had been away at sea ended up in a situation where they were potentially locked down either on a ship or at school for 13 months. We contract health services from a major civilian healthcare company. This company's head of infectious diseases routinely meets with us to discuss covid measures. He advocates the vaccine, but recently said we are vaccinating for a variant that is no longer a threat. Those are his words, not mine. I am vaccinated, but I loathe some of these recent mandates. if I am vaccinated, why do I care if you are? Variants right? Well, last number I saw, and maybe this was wrong or outdated, 85% of the third world is not vaccinated. The US being 75 instead of 85% vaccinated is not going to cause variants the way other countries that are mostly not vaccinated will. Especially with our porous southern border, and even without that, we allow people to visit here. I have become very disgusted, however, with the maskers. Do you really believe, randomly constructed masks made of random materials, and worn in various manners is protecting you? Oh wait, it doesn't protect you, it protects others. Well, do you really believe that? And if you are concerned about your safety, get the vaccine so you don't have to worry about others wearing masks. I also read a study a few months ago on social distancing. the study results basically said that masking and social distancing indoors are irrelevant compared to ventiation. Unless a building has a serious HVAC that exchanges the air regularly, the virus builds up in the air to the point masking and social distancing are irrelevant. A doctor friend asked me if I had covid. As far as I know, I did not. He found it strange that I could spend so much time in close proximity to a population with a high positivity rate. So maybe I did, and was asymptomatic. I know I put a lot of stuff here, but I guess what I would say is, if you think the vaccine works get it. But every restriction on our liberty is used as justification for further restrictions. We can require vaccines for school, so why not for everything? We can ban (or severely restrict to the wealthy) machine guns, so why can't we do that for handguns? I see people say things like, if you think a vaccine mandate is tyranny, you must think traffic rules are tyrrany. Really? Your argument is that since we have traffic rules, the govt can pass any restrictions they want? Anyway, I hope everyone is doing well. And, you know, there's a reason many Asian populations have been wearing them during viral outbreaks for decades.
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"Good luck in your senior year!" "If Adolf Hitler flew in today, they'd send a limousine anyway." "This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around." Last edited by SmokeBellew; 09-15-2021 at 09:59 PM.. |
SmokeBellew |
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09-15-2021, 09:59 PM | #523 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: America
Posts: 1,414
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Quote:
It's all snotty here, man. lol I've gotten especially snotty because of the generic bullshit spamming the forums. I was actually ignoring this until I saw that same ol' shit happening. These are the same types of troll-fucks who spam every comment section on any online article with their bullshit hackneyed misinformation, ignorance and all-around idiocy. They're not here to discuss anything. They're here to pontificate and spread lies. That's why I block them. Seriously, look at what they did here: start off with a mixture of opinion presented as (disproven) fact and outright lies, back-pedal or ignore when called out, say the same shit in another way, try to confuse the issue with more bullshit, disregard that the foundations for their arguments are built on hypocrisy and disingenuous doublethink, reassert they're here to discuss as they ignore valid points and look instead for anything they can pick apart with phony logic, act cute and clever even though they're just brainwashed morons parroting cheap, generic and false rhetoric. When all else fails, spin-spin-spin. They've basically become human bots and they don't even realize it. There's no point in listening to them and no percentage in spending time on them. It's just best to ignore them because they're essentially little idiot children who crave attention.
I'm convinced you are simply trying to get the thread locked because you cant allow others to have different views or beliefs |
09-15-2021, 10:52 PM | #524 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: kansas
Posts: 663
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"No I don't think it should be mandatory, I wouldn't demand it be mandatory." President Biden
WASHINGTON, July 30 (Reuters) - U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said on Friday there will be no nationwide mandate for Americans to get a COVID-19 vaccine, clarifying comments she made earlier during a televised interview. "To clarify: There will be no nationwide mandate. I was referring to mandates by private institutions and portions of the federal government," Walensky wrote in a Twitter post. "There will be no federal mandate." “OSHA doing this vaxx mandate as an emergency workplace safety rule*is the ultimate work-around for the Federal govt to require vaccinations,” Retweet by the Whitehouse chief of staff This was done not by law but by executive order. No representative voted for it, but you can be sure it will be taken to the judicial branch. They lied about it until they came up with some kind of workaround. They clearly don't have the votes or the Authority, hence the need for a workaround. For those that are not Americans or just don't follow politics, this is a big reason for all the debate. |
09-16-2021, 02:25 AM | #525 |
Lousy Greenshirt
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Iowa, US
Posts: 1,091
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Quote:
"No I don't think it should be mandatory, I wouldn't demand it be mandatory." President Biden
WASHINGTON, July 30 (Reuters) - U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said on Friday there will be no nationwide mandate for Americans to get a COVID-19 vaccine, clarifying comments she made earlier during a televised interview. "To clarify: There will be no nationwide mandate. I was referring to mandates by private institutions and portions of the federal government," Walensky wrote in a Twitter post. "There will be no federal mandate." “OSHA doing this vaxx mandate as an emergency workplace safety rule*is the ultimate work-around for the Federal govt to require vaccinations,” Retweet by the Whitehouse chief of staff This was done not by law but by executive order. No representative voted for it, but you can be sure it will be taken to the judicial branch. They lied about it until they came up with some kind of workaround. They clearly don't have the votes or the Authority, hence the need for a workaround. For those that are not Americans or just don't follow politics, this is a big reason for all the debate. They're pushing the vaccine in order to help themselves and their rich and powerful buddies out, because like I've already said, the majority of them lose money if we get sick and die from this. The haves make their money off the backs of the have nots. They need us around, even if it's just to screw us. There's probably never going to be indisputable, full proof that these vaccines are 100% safe. But when you think about the point I just made (and have made when similar arguments have come up earlier in the thread) about the rich needing us, logic seems to dictate that your health has a better chance with the vaccine than without it. This was all kind of discussed before. Maybe we should try not to rehash old arguments if we're not really breaking any new ground in the discission. |
09-16-2021, 02:38 AM | #526 |
Bill Cosplay
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Staying clear of knee-jerk nerds.
Posts: 5,873
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Quote:
You're just kind of circling around some of the same things you've already brought up here. Yup, the government sucks. Politicians lie to us left and right, and try to shortcut things in order to benefit them and all of their rich and powerful buddies. You're not going to get much argument from people on any of that.
They're pushing the vaccine in order to help themselves and their rich and powerful buddies out, because like I've already said, the majority of them lose money if we get sick and die from this. The haves make their money off the backs of the have nots. They need us around, even if it's just to screw us. There's probably never going to be indisputable, full proof that these vaccines are 100% safe. But when you think about the point I just made (and have made when similar arguments have come up earlier in the thread) about the rich needing us, logic seems to dictate that your health has a better chance with the vaccine than without it. This was all kind of discussed before. Maybe we should try not to rehash old arguments if we're not really breaking any new ground in the discission.
__________________
"Good luck in your senior year!" "If Adolf Hitler flew in today, they'd send a limousine anyway." "This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around." |
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09-16-2021, 03:06 AM | #527 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: kansas
Posts: 663
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Quote:
You're just kind of circling around some of the same things you've already brought up here. Yup, the government sucks. Politicians lie to us left and right, and try to shortcut things in order to benefit them and all of their rich and powerful buddies. You're not going to get much argument from people on any of that.
They're pushing the vaccine in order to help themselves and their rich and powerful buddies out, because like I've already said, the majority of them lose money if we get sick and die from this. The haves make their money off the backs of the have nots. They need us around, even if it's just to screw us. There's probably never going to be indisputable, full proof that these vaccines are 100% safe. But when you think about the point I just made (and have made when similar arguments have come up earlier in the thread) about the rich needing us, logic seems to dictate that your health has a better chance with the vaccine than without it. This was all kind of discussed before. Maybe we should try not to rehash old arguments if we're not really breaking any new ground in the discission. Last edited by viper2382; 09-16-2021 at 03:39 AM.. |
09-16-2021, 11:08 AM | #528 |
Lousy Greenshirt
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Iowa, US
Posts: 1,091
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Quote:
Some industries depend on the have nots but consider that health care spending accounts for 18 percent of gdp. Thats before 2020. Thats a huge chunk of gdp already and then add in Walmart, Amazon, other mega corporations that weren't forced to close, as well as increased online presence bringing in add revenue for big tech. Thats a pretty substantial portion of gdp and some pretty powerful people. I don't think they're intentionally prolonging it for the most part, but consider the difference between Trump, Joe Rogan, and other well off peoples covid experience. They hit the virus with everything that may work and the recovery time is dramatically reduced to 3-5 days. Also consider the Fda approval of Pfizers vacine. Its approved but not available even though its essentially the same as the emergency use approved Pfizer vaccine. The reason for this has been reported that other covid vaccines would lose their emergency use status, and Pfizer would be open to lawsuits for any damages from side effect. If there are fda approved treatments available, by law the non fda approved vaccines lose their emergency use authorization. This seems to be a big reason for why the reseach into other possible treatments is slow rolled such as ivermectin. I posted about the vaccine mandates and the duplicity of the cdc and Biden administrations position on them because it occurs to me that people like SmokeBellew are not American, and may not understand the context that these conversations are taking place in. Also, there has been almost no discussion as to the legality of a vaccine mandate, or what Biden or the Cdc have said regarding it, so I'm not sure why you would consider it rehashed.
Just to reiterate my thoughts on it, there's definitely some powerful people that are profiting from the pandemic; like I said earlier though, I think the majority of those in power are looking to get this over with, because it's either hurting their profits now, or will in the future. Because of this, it's much more likely than not that these vaccines mandates, and mask mandates, are happening to get us through the pandemic; if for no other reason than they need our backs to make their money. Sorry, I'm kind of confused on what your point was about Trump and Rogan in correlation to what you were talking about. Also, your whole part about the Pfizer vaccine is not something I know anything about. Pfizer's FDA approved vaccine is a different vaccine now that's not available? Sorry, I'm probably just not understanding what you're saying. |
09-16-2021, 12:57 PM | #529 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: kansas
Posts: 663
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The government isn't a monolith. Different people have lied about different things. Fauci lying about masks isn't the same as Biden lying about mandates. Talking about the overall moral view leading to lies being acceptable is a different point than an individual that has lied. There are different reasons for different misstruths ment to accomplish different goals. For example lying about masks was an effort to save masks for medical workers, while lying about the possibility of a mandate is ment to quiet dissent while a workaround can be found.
The Pfizer vaccine thing is pretty confusing. It's the same thing but legally distinct. That is there are different legal standards for manufacture and liability. Its the same product, manufactured under different authorizations. The emergency use authorization has a fund for harm done by the vaccine, but it is much harder to prove with much lower payouts than under a regular fda authorization. "[1] The licensed vaccine has the same formulation as the EUA-authorized vaccine and the products can be used interchangeably to provide the vaccination series without presenting any safety or effectiveness concerns. The products are legally distinct with certain differences that do not impact safety or effectiveness." The emergency use authorization states that there must be no fda approved treatment available in order to grant the authorization. So, the fda approved version of the vaccine comirnaty is not available, thus keeping the other vaccines emergency use authorizations intact, as well as protecting Pfizer from any liability. Now consider Trump and Rogan. They couldn't be more different health wise. One is overweight, doesn't exercise and consists off of a diet of fast food. The other is in shape practicing Brazilian Ju-jitzu, and pays a lot of attention to healthy eating. Both were given a combination of drugs and treatments that have been speculated to help with covid that are usually not given to the wider public. Both had incredibly fast recovery rates. Its not their individual health that allowed for this as they are the complete opposite. It must be something in the treatment. Now consider why this isn't examined, in fact its mocked. You are a large pharmaceutical company with a guaranteed buyer (the government) for your latest vaccine, and you have no liability, just profit. If one of these treatments Rogan or Trump recieved gets fda approval for covid, your emergency use authorization is gone, your guaranteed profits are gone. Considering the close relations with the major pharmaceutical companies and the fda, is it any wonder why these other treatments haven't really been looked at? Is it any wonder that for example ivermectin is derisively called horse paste? Last edited by viper2382; 09-16-2021 at 01:01 PM.. |
09-16-2021, 04:15 PM | #530 |
The Man You Know & Love
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: In The Middle of a Late Night Crew Orgy
Posts: 28,199
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Putting on a mask to walk ten feet through a restaurant and then taking it off when I get to my table is one of the dumbest things I've done in my entire life and I've done a lot of dumb shit.
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