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05-24-2021, 12:35 PM | #31 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 408
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I think everyone has some good points for and against - me personally, I would love it so much if we eventually got a "retro" o-ring line, so I'm firmly in favour. I think it would do well, and I also think it doesn't necessarily have to detract from what they are up to with Classified or anything else - I think we've all proven there is a tremendous market for G.I. Joe.
One thing I'll mention though, is that there's nothing stopping them from doing both a line of exact replicas, and another line that could be a resculpted/updated o-ring line. To my knowledge, every single major 80s toy line (other than Joe) - so Star Wars, Transformers, He-Man, and TMNT - have all had releases of direct replicas and also re sculpted releases of the classic designs (the "ultimate version" of the classics). I think it's not only possible, but maybe even a good idea from Hasbro's standpoint. |
05-24-2021, 02:59 PM | #32 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Chicago
Posts: 842
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I think to assume that the market for o-rings is too small to justify a re-release is an underestimation, because every time a toy line like Star Wars, TMNT, Ghostbusters etc. has released a "retro" toy line, it has always been a huge success.
The idea that current vintage collects won't support a new retro o-ring line, because they're not the originals, yet they buy originals because of their nostalgia, doesn't add up for me. If a vintage collectors nostalgia is so strong that they're willing to fork out $50 for a Baroness, or $85 for a Firefly, I believe that seeing re-releases of o-ring figures on vintage card backs at retail for $13 will more than tickle their nostalgic bone. I know quite a few collectors who picked up the re-release of the Awe Striker, Hiss Tank and Fang at retail, purely for the vehicles and box, and ditched the ME figure. Also, if we look at all the internet chatter and comments on the Hasbro IG when they revealed the "retro" line, it was overwhelmingly full is disappointment when they realized that line wasn't o-ring as everyone was lead to believe. Now I understand that Hasbro claims they don't have the original molds of some of the original figures, and while I'm no expert on making molds, I don't see how they can't cast original o-rings they have now and create new molds that way. Surely that is cheaper than creating new sculpts and then new mold, as in the case for ME figures. I guess the argument for whether it's worth Hasbro's time to recreate the molds comes don't to whether or not you believe there is a big enough market for o-ring rereleases, and I believe the evidence is there to support it. As for Classified, that's also largely based on nostalgia too. Many fans were disappointed with the first wave because the decos didn't match the vintage decos, to the point I believe where Hasbro too note and and changed course to stick closer to the originals. If nostalgia is the main driving force of GI Joe in our current times, more articulation and true to life details isn't really what satisfies nostalgia... it's the things were remember as kids. Now, I think the Classified line is great for what it is, and I even picked up a few figures that I really liked, but I have to admit that after owning them for a short while, the novelty of the added articulation and realism has worn off a bit. I'm not saying that because of my nostalgia for the o-rings, but that I feel the playability and "toyetic" quality of the 6 inch scale and the ME construction are not as solid as o-rings IMHO. I feel that a similar comparison could be made between G1 Transformers and Masterpiece, though o-ring Joes had more articulation than G1 Transformers did. It take a considerable amount of time to transform a MP figure because of the highly detailed nature, so most of the time goes into transforming and posing, as opposed to playing. Though you don't transform Classified Joes, the highly articulated nature of the figures push them more to be used as objects for posing and display. With G1 Transformers and o-rings, they had enough moveable parts to achieve basic poses, but it was ultimately about how they were played with. From a toy and play perspective, I think there is something to be said for finding a balance within detail and articulation. The most articulated and detailed toys don't necessarily make the "best" and most playable toys. I believe that for kids, having a solid toy with enough articulation to achieve basic poses is more important to encourage creative play patterns than a toy with the most articulation and detail. Where there is a limit and gap in detail and articulation, the mind fills in with creative imagination, and that's where I find a lot of ME figures lacking. I think that's why the MOTU Origins line is such a success, because it stays true to the essence of the original figures, but improves with the right balance of updated articulation. I felt like the original MOTU toys lacked the right amount of articulation, as much as I loved them, but I feel the the original o-ring joes had the articulation just right for play and didn't need an update for 3 3/4 scale. I'm not saying we should choose 1 of the other, because I feel o-rings and ME 6" both still have their place in our current times for different reasons. I just believe that there is, and should still be, a future for rereleased o-rings in the current Joe toy world, because there are pros to them, and there is obvious demand. |
05-24-2021, 08:01 PM | #33 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 408
|
Great comments - agree 100%
Also - I've always wanted to know more about the details of toy making - I'd be very curious to know the costs/logistics of creating new molds - could you do it from an existing figure? How much would it cost to sculpt a brand new V2 snake eyes, for example, assuming the mold doesn't exist and you couldn't re mold it from an existing figure, etc. If anyone knows any of this information, I'd love to hear it. |
05-24-2021, 08:44 PM | #34 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: ON
Posts: 522
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Quote:
Great comments - agree 100%
Also - I've always wanted to know more about the details of toy making - I'd be very curious to know the costs/logistics of creating new molds - could you do it from an existing figure? How much would it cost to sculpt a brand new V2 snake eyes, for example, assuming the mold doesn't exist and you couldn't re mold it from an existing figure, etc. If anyone knows any of this information, I'd love to hear it. ________________________________ |
05-25-2021, 02:59 AM | #35 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Chicago
Posts: 842
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I honestly don't think Hasbro lacks the ability to recreate o-rings... I feel like the lack of o-rings has more to do with the current people at Hasbro not understanding what made GI Joe funs to play with, and instead jumping on the highly articulated 6" bandwagon(again,nothing wrong with 6" for what they are, I do like them), because that's what everyone else is making. What was fun about GI Joe, for me, was having a large variety of figures, vehicles and play sets of various sizes, designs and subgroups that could interact together. The articulation was enough where you could achieve decent poses, but didn't need to worry about hands falling off, wrists, ankles, abs, butterfly joints etc. getting wobbly, so you could focus on play. The cost of tooling for 6" vs 3 3/4 are not that different, yet you can charge $7 more for a 6" figure, so profits are higher.
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05-25-2021, 09:59 AM | #36 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 408
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See that's what I figure, they could do something like that without too much effort.
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05-25-2021, 11:04 AM | #37 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 408
|
Quote:
I honestly don't think Hasbro lacks the ability to recreate o-rings... I feel like the lack of o-rings has more to do with the current people at Hasbro not understanding what made GI Joe funs to play with, and instead jumping on the highly articulated 6" bandwagon(again,nothing wrong with 6" for what they are, I do like them), because that's what everyone else is making. What was fun about GI Joe, for me, was having a large variety of figures, vehicles and play sets of various sizes, designs and subgroups that could interact together. The articulation was enough where you could achieve decent poses, but didn't need to worry about hands falling off, wrists, ankles, abs, butterfly joints etc. getting wobbly, so you could focus on play. The cost of tooling for 6" vs 3 3/4 are not that different, yet you can charge $7 more for a 6" figure, so profits are higher.
Also - one thing I've always wondered: sure the profit on 6" v. 3.75" is higher, but in the "Toys That Made us" episode, they said the margin was so high on vehicles, that's where they made the money - it would make sense for Hasbro to try and push that angle I would think. |
05-25-2021, 03:05 PM | #38 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Chicago
Posts: 842
|
Quote:
I do agree with you here too - I'm sure we put a lot more importance on o-rings than anyone at Hasbro, but just that literally every other 80s line has had a faithful retro offering gives me hope. I also did see something where someone - not sure if it was Lenny or someone else - did mention that the o-ring return is something that would be considered.
Also - one thing I've always wondered: sure the profit on 6" v. 3.75" is higher, but in the "Toys That Made us" episode, they said the margin was so high on vehicles, that's where they made the money - it would make sense for Hasbro to try and push that angle I would think. It makes sense that the vehicles were the big money maker. It would make sense to use that angle to re-introduce o-rings, but I just wonder how deep they could get with that to make the line viable, when Hasbro is already spreading themselves so thin with 2 6" lines, and a "retro" line that isn't actually retro. I think Star Wars was similar in that the vintage line was all about the vehicles making the money, but when Star Wars came back in a big way, the shelves were full of Star Wars toys in all sorts of scales, but the vehicles were limited to an X-wing, Tie fighter and the millennium falcon, and I think a speeder. It was a drop in the bucket of the range of SW vehicles that came with the vintage collection. I think one of the problems we have today with action figure based toy lines is that there are too many scales. A toy line could have multiple 6" scales representing different animated shows, movies, collector series. Then there could be a ME 3 3/4 scale, one with 5POA, and one with modern articulation. Then there could be some 12" figures, and mini figures etc... It's impossible to get deep into a line when toy companies are trying to hit every single scale, and every single aesthetic. Back in the day we basically had 1 dominant scale which the property was based around, and that allowed companies to make lots of variations of characters, sub teams, vehicles, play sets etc... There's only so much space on the toy shelves, and when toy companies give you 5-6 different versions of the same character, you pretty much know that the diversity of characters is going to suffer. For a super hero toy line with limited characters and few if any vehicles, that's not really a problem, but with a toy line like GI Joe, with literally hundreds of characters and vehicles, it really squeezes the potential life blood out of what makes GI Joe cool. I love Snake-Eyes as much as the next guy, but I have to say that I'm getting kind of tired of seeing him reproduced over and over again. At this point even a Crystal Ball would be more exciting, and that's not a good sign in my eyes. My hope is that Hasbro can balance the Classified line with a reintroduction of o-rings with vehicles, without getting sidetracked will a million different scales and designs... so that both lines can receive the depth they deserve. I don't think it's happening, but if I had my wish, that would be it. |
05-26-2021, 10:16 AM | #39 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 408
|
Yeah the retro line for me was a huge disappointment - of a few options they could have chosen it was probably the worst. I'm not really sure why I am that hopeful - and probably cautiously optimistic is more the term - but just the fact G.I. Joe is the only toy line that doesn't have a a good retro line makes me wonder if somewhere down the line, with continued success, they might rectify this - only time will tell I guess.
Interesting point about SW vehicles - you're right, they've really moved away from that. I'd love to see some sales trends on how vehicles have sold through the years, they've just maybe been on a downward trend over the years. To you final point, I agree 100% - proceeding with classified and a well done line of retro o-ring would be my ideal as well. |
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