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03-13-2012, 07:35 AM | #371 |
Crimson Nerd
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
Not really. The character of Shepard takes a 180 degree turn and just gives into this reaper god thing...WTF? That makes no sense...
You're telling me that the Shepard you role-played for 3 games would be willing to believe anything that little blue freak said? That's what i don't get.... Quote:
It sort of does make sense, when you consider Shepard's state at that point in time- physically and mentally. He's exhausted in every sense of the word, he just got toasted by Harbinger (I still want to gut that son of a bitch), broke TIM's control, saw his mentor and best friend die, and the three-year long war that he's been fighting is taking its toll on him. He wants it to end. Even the toughest wall eventually crumbles.
It's not perfect or completely excusable, but it still makes sense. Quote:
Yeah if Shepard was just an ordinary man this would be the likely outcome. "Oh this button will solve all my problems Reaper god kid? Sure I'll believe you." But Shepard is not an ordinary man, Shepard has surpassed our level. Shepard is beyond us, Shepard is like Batman. He's a regular human, but he's beyond it as well. He can impossible things and it's alright because he's Shepard. Shepard should be able to walk into the worst hell he could imagine and still be smiling and making corny paragon speeches, witty one liners, or renegade action movie lines to the devil.
What happens when you put Batman in a no win scenario? What happens when you put Captain Kirk in a no win scenario? What happens when you put Luke Skywalker in a no win scenario? The list goes on, but the answer is always this. They win. Exactly what alternative do you think they should have had? Punch the Catalyst? Not take any of the three choices? At that point, it boils down to: Make a choice, or the cycle continues, PERIOD. Whether Shepard is "broken" or not (and I don't think there's really any evidence they are) they have to make a choice, and there's only three available to him/her. All the Paragon or Renegade points in the world aren't going to affect the Catalyst anymore than they ever affected a Reaper (which is to say: Not at all). What point is arguing going to serve at that point? End the war, or let the galaxy die, because you're not going to be able to physically beat the Reapers in a stand up fight. Just like with every other decision you've made over the course of three games, there's no middle ground there, and every minute you delay means more people dead on and around Earth. So I ask again: Just what "other way"/"way to win" do you think should have been included that isn't just some fanwank that has Shepard suddenly developing reality-altering powers to conjure up a fourth "beam" or reprogram Catalyst himself. Let's not forget: Shepard has been placed in no-win situations before and "lost" (or at the very least hasn't had a "complete victory"): Virmire, for one, and (possibly) curing the genophage (You either have to lose a friend or betray an ally) or resolving the conflict between Quarians and Geth (depending on your decisions throughout the series). He/She ain't the goddamn Batman, no matter how much people want them to be. They've never been "perfect" and even as far back as Mass Effect 1 we've seen moments where they were on the verge of giving up (lest we forget Shep crumpling up next to his locker on the Normandy after being grounded). To be clear: I've got plenty of problems with the ending, but characterization isn't one of them. Last edited by Jmacq1; 03-13-2012 at 08:06 AM.. |
03-13-2012, 01:08 PM | #372 |
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They build the Crucible, then they find out what the Catalyst is (not little AI god boy, something else), then they combine the Crucible, Citadel & Catalyst, then they use that to send a signal out through all the relays that screws up the Reapers. Then while the Reapers are weakened & disoriented the fleet moves in for the attack. If you're battle readiness is high you defeat the Reapers, if not you get your ass handed to you. Something really simple like that is all they needed.
They didn't need to get all complicated & stupid about it. Just imagine if Lucas did this at the end of Star Wars. Luke, now that you're at the end you need to make a choice: 1. You can destroy the Death Star but as a result you'll die & all life in the galaxy will be destroyed. or 2. You can take control of the Death Star but you'll die & all life in the galaxy will be destroyed. Last edited by Steelgrave; 03-13-2012 at 01:10 PM.. |
03-13-2012, 01:18 PM | #373 |
Crimson Nerd
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 12,579
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Quote:
They build the Crucible, then they find out what the Catalyst is (not little AI god boy, something else), then they combine the Crucible, Citadel & Catalyst, then they use that to send a signal out through all the relays that screws up the Reapers. Then while the Reapers are weakened & disoriented the fleet moves in for the attack. If you're battle readiness is high you defeat the Reapers, if not you get your ass handed to you. Something really simple like that is all they needed.
They didn't need to get all complicated & stupid about it. Just imagine if Lucas did this at the end of Star Wars. Luke, now that you're at the end you need to make a choice: 1. You can destroy the Death Star but as a result you'll die & all life in the galaxy will be destroyed. or 2. You can take control of the Death Star but you'll die & all life in the galaxy will be destroyed. Anyway, if you want to make an accurate analogy, it'd be the end of Return of the Jedi, and the options would be: 1. You can destroy the Sith and the Empire, but in so doing many of the people that fought alongside you will die as well. You MIGHT live. 2. The Jedi/Rebellion can take control of the Sith and the Empire, but you'll die in the process. 3. The Jedi and Sith will merge, causing everyone to have a little Sith in them, but everyone (except you) will live. NONE of the Mass Effect 3 endings involve "all life in the galaxy being destroyed." That's what happens if you DON'T make a choice. If you got the idea "all life in the galaxy" was destroyed in the endings, then you either completely misunderstood them or weren't paying a lick of attention. Last edited by Jmacq1; 03-13-2012 at 01:21 PM.. |
03-13-2012, 04:11 PM | #374 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 432
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Quote:
So for all you "ZOMG Shepard should be the unbreakable ShepGod!" folks...
Exactly what alternative do you think they should have had? Punch the Catalyst? Not take any of the three choices? At that point, it boils down to: Make a choice, or the cycle continues, PERIOD. Whether Shepard is "broken" or not (and I don't think there's really any evidence they are) they have to make a choice, and there's only three available to him/her. All the Paragon or Renegade points in the world aren't going to affect the Catalyst anymore than they ever affected a Reaper (which is to say: Not at all). What point is arguing going to serve at that point? End the war, or let the galaxy die, because you're not going to be able to physically beat the Reapers in a stand up fight. Just like with every other decision you've made over the course of three games, there's no middle ground there, and every minute you delay means more people dead on and around Earth. So I ask again: Just what "other way"/"way to win" do you think should have been included that isn't just some fanwank that has Shepard suddenly developing reality-altering powers to conjure up a fourth "beam" or reprogram Catalyst himself. Let's not forget: Shepard has been placed in no-win situations before and "lost" (or at the very least hasn't had a "complete victory"): Virmire, for one, and (possibly) curing the genophage (You either have to lose a friend or betray an ally) or resolving the conflict between Quarians and Geth (depending on your decisions throughout the series). He/She ain't the goddamn Batman, no matter how much people want them to be. They've never been "perfect" and even as far back as Mass Effect 1 we've seen moments where they were on the verge of giving up (lest we forget Shep crumpling up next to his locker on the Normandy after being grounded). To be clear: I've got plenty of problems with the ending, but characterization isn't one of them. And if you do enough your Shepard can wake up in a hospital with his love interest watching over him who can give him the epilogue about what's happened in the galaxy. And the game can end with Shepard for the first time in three years able to be at peace. If not the game ends with Hacket presiding over Shepards funeral which is a galactic televised event with thousands in attendence as he and Shepards love interest give the epilouge. And if your a renegade you can get a similar ending with your choices. But THAT would be an ending I could like. No deus ex machina, which hasn't been an acceptable way to solve a story in hundreds of years. |
03-13-2012, 04:44 PM | #375 |
Knight of Spear
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Helheim Forest
Posts: 10,531
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As much as I hate to break the subject, has anyone tried out Multiplayer yet?
I'm very pleased with how much it's improved over the demo, although I do run into a bug from time to time where an enemy wave will end but another will fail to start. Still haven't gotten any new weapons since I got my starter pack (Incisor), which sucks.
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03-13-2012, 04:47 PM | #376 |
Crimson Nerd
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 12,579
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Quote:
I could see a paragon Shepard telling the catalyst he's not playing his game. He just walks off, goes to the window and radios the whole fleet. Gives a heroic inspiring speech and then sits down to watch all his choices come to fruition. If you saved the rachni millions of rachni start swarming the Reapers and crawling inside them and wrecking havok in them. If the Batarians joined you squads of Batarian saboteurs infiltrate Reapers and drop off nukes. If you saved the Destiny Ascension it rips the Reapers a new one with its main cannon while the Geth provide defense for it. If the Geth and Quarians are both there their combined fleets overwhelm the Reapers. If you did all the mineral quests in ME1 The Alliance has a surplus of materials and can repair their ships and ground vehicles quicker. If you did all your squadmates loyalty quests you see a montage of them fighting and winning. You see a bunch of Spectres holding off whole armies of Husks on their own. The STG hijacks some Reapers and turns them on the others. The companies on Noveria if you helped them give the fleets new advanced weapons. Synthetic Insights uploads a virus into the Reapers that disrupts them for a few seconds. ExoGeni shows up with advanced Prothean weapons. Binary Helix shows up with bio weapons that start eating the Reapers organic parts. And if you made enough right choices the Reapers retreat. And Shepard watches as the Reapers retreat right as people reach him in the Citadel and he collapses from blood loss, at peace knowing he's saved the galaxy, not through any one action, but by the CHOICES he's made.
And if you do enough your Shepard can wake up in a hospital with his love interest watching over him who can give him the epilogue about what's happened in the galaxy. And the game can end with Shepard for the first time in three years able to be at peace. If not the game ends with Hacket presiding over Shepards funeral which is a galactic televised event with thousands in attendence as he and Shepards love interest give the epilouge. And if your a renegade you can get a similar ending with your choices. But THAT would be an ending I could like. No deus ex machina, which hasn't been an acceptable way to solve a story in hundreds of years. I'm pissed about the lack of closure as much as anyone else, but anyone that thought anything BUT a deus-ex-machina was going to end this series really wasn't paying attention to what they've been telling us about the Reapers for three games straight. |
03-13-2012, 07:30 PM | #377 |
I Brake For Asari!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Thessia
Posts: 32,377
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Quote:
I could see a paragon Shepard telling the catalyst he's not playing his game. He just walks off, goes to the window and radios the whole fleet. Gives a heroic inspiring speech and then sits down to watch all his choices come to fruition. If you saved the rachni millions of rachni start swarming the Reapers and crawling inside them and wrecking havok in them. If the Batarians joined you squads of Batarian saboteurs infiltrate Reapers and drop off nukes. If you saved the Destiny Ascension it rips the Reapers a new one with its main cannon while the Geth provide defense for it. If the Geth and Quarians are both there their combined fleets overwhelm the Reapers. If you did all the mineral quests in ME1 The Alliance has a surplus of materials and can repair their ships and ground vehicles quicker. If you did all your squadmates loyalty quests you see a montage of them fighting and winning. You see a bunch of Spectres holding off whole armies of Husks on their own. The STG hijacks some Reapers and turns them on the others. The companies on Noveria if you helped them give the fleets new advanced weapons. Synthetic Insights uploads a virus into the Reapers that disrupts them for a few seconds. ExoGeni shows up with advanced Prothean weapons. Binary Helix shows up with bio weapons that start eating the Reapers organic parts. And if you made enough right choices the Reapers retreat. And Shepard watches as the Reapers retreat right as people reach him in the Citadel and he collapses from blood loss, at peace knowing he's saved the galaxy, not through any one action, but by the CHOICES he's made.
And if you do enough your Shepard can wake up in a hospital with his love interest watching over him who can give him the epilogue about what's happened in the galaxy. And the game can end with Shepard for the first time in three years able to be at peace. If not the game ends with Hacket presiding over Shepards funeral which is a galactic televised event with thousands in attendence as he and Shepards love interest give the epilouge. And if your a renegade you can get a similar ending with your choices. But THAT would be an ending I could like. No deus ex machina, which hasn't been an acceptable way to solve a story in hundreds of years. There needed to be about 15 more minutes of game and exposition for me to be happy with the ending near what it is (what the creators wanted/intended)...... It just seems FUBAR to the rest of the game.... As it stands Shepard can live in one ending and kinda live on in another......so shep dying isn't the problem. I can't see Shep playing god for trillions of people and forcibly merging them into another species. i truly didn't expect blue babies or hammering nails into a house as an ending....
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03-13-2012, 07:37 PM | #378 |
Knight of Spear
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Helheim Forest
Posts: 10,531
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The good news is that BioWare is mobilizing to do... SOMETHING... per their twitter feed.
New endings? An epilogue? A Russian hit squad? No clue, but they're working on something, and being damn cryptic about it.
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03-13-2012, 08:39 PM | #379 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 432
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Quote:
Yeah, because "Hero gives an inspiring speech and suddenly the previously all-but-invincible bad guys are easily killed!" ending is SO much less cliche....
I'm pissed about the lack of closure as much as anyone else, but anyone that thought anything BUT a deus-ex-machina was going to end this series really wasn't paying attention to what they've been telling us about the Reapers for three games straight. Hero giving an inspiring speech and suddenly the previously all-but-invincible bad buys are easily killed" has been EVERY MASS EFFECT GAME. ME, Shepard kills a Reaper in hand to hand combat while five minutes before convinced someone to break free of the 'unbreakable' control of the Reapers long enough to kill himself. ME2, Shepard gives an inspiring speech to his squad while assaulting the 'invincible' collectors base while outgunned, out manned, etc... And not only does he win, he saves all his squad and rescues his crew. Then KILLS a Reaper on foot. Then escapes to fight another day. Not to mention the Reapers are killed ALL THE FREAKING TIME in ME3. And I have to disagree with people on whehther it was a maguffin or a deus ex machina. A maguffin was what the Crucible was, but once the Reaper god kid showed up and revealed the solution it became deus ex machina. You have a 'god' show up to solve the hero's problem, that is the definition of deus ex machina. I don't dislike the ending because it was dark. I'd have no problem with Shepard and his squad all dying. I do have a problem with how it was done, Shepard loyal squad apparently abandoned him and bolted to the relay. Shepard sacrificing every principle he has without argument to the reaper god. It's bad writing, every bit of it. This isn't some 'dark artistic' ending, this isn't some 'bold and fresh' ending. This is crap writing wrapped up in every dark ending cliche imaginable. It's done for no other reason than to make the ending have a sad ending, even if it didn't fit thematically with the rest of the series. And the whole excuse that it's wrong for people to want to change 'art' but this isn't some free piece. I'm the patron to these artists and I have the right to tell them, 'that's not good, go try again.' |
03-13-2012, 09:46 PM | #380 |
Knight of Spear
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