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11-12-2010, 09:50 AM | #31 |
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It is my declaration that I am participating in this quality thread. Variations include, "posting in epic thread", "posting in awesome thread", and "in before the lock" (which would be an epic fail of a thread that's about to get shut down).
You may take it as the compliment it was intended to be. This thread could easily go for a hundred pages and not even begin to scratch the surface of all the different types of bad-guys in reality and fiction, and thus, there is much room for healthy discussion and debate, especially as the title is somewhat vague. What makes a villain, as opposed to what makes an effective villain, or scary villain, or sympathetic villain, or awesome villain. Whether you intended it or not, it leaves a lot of open territory, and it's a discussion I could post forever in. |
11-12-2010, 07:21 PM | #32 |
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There's also a good amount of fun to be had distinguishing a villain from an antagonist. The protagonist the the character we are meant to follow and (usually) root for, but they're not always the hero. I notice quite a few movies these days like Despicable Me, Doctor Horrible, and Megamind, and games like Evil Genius, have been having fun making the traditional villain as the main character.
This is nothing new. A very old Marvel story featured Doctor Doom challenging The Devil (Mephisto) for the freedom of his mother's soul. Even though Doom is one of the most threatening villains of the Marvel Universe, it's not hard to root for him, even cheer him in a fight like that. The Godfather has Brando and Pacino as mafia crime lords, but their unwillingness to sell drugs allows the audience to keep their sympathies with the protagonist, and their rivals are so utterly without conscience that even when Pacino falls into the dark side, he's still not as bad as they are, and his revenge is seen as justifiable by the audience. |
11-12-2010, 07:53 PM | #33 |
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i agree,DR.DOOM is the perfect anti hero yet easy to root for because though he is the "bad guy" many of his motives are geared in the right direction,saving his mother was always first on his list and to do that meant takin on the devil,i mean c'mon,would reed take on satan for sue?would most any hero take on the damn devil himself?i think not,but it also speaks volumes on victors confidence in himself which is one of the traits he has that people look at as abrasive or cocky but when it comes down to it its a weapon,and he uses it well
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11-13-2010, 04:26 PM | #34 |
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I was chaotic once. Now I'm predictably annoying. |
11-13-2010, 06:21 PM | #35 |
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i agree,DR.DOOM is the perfect anti hero yet easy to root for because though he is the "bad guy" many of his motives are geared in the right direction,saving his mother was always first on his list and to do that meant takin on the devil,i mean c'mon,would reed take on satan for sue?
Even his greatest victory, rescuing his mother's soul, came about because he finally swallowed his pride enough to accept help from Doctor Strange. Had he learned a lesson from that to be a better team player and work with others rather than to dominate them, let go of the prideful jealousy of Reed that scarred him, he might have found redemption as a certain Dark Lord of the Sith did, but obviously the fandom would never have stood for that kind of character growth, so he continues to make the same mistakes, and is an ultimately tragic and hopeless character for it. Perhaps in a meta sense, we are the true villains for not allowing such a thing, and Marvel for giving in to our tyrannical whims? |
11-13-2010, 06:26 PM | #36 |
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11-13-2010, 07:06 PM | #37 |
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I dont like the whole he/she became a villain because such and such happened to him/her idea. I feel most who would be considered a villain was born that way and simply enjoys hurting people.
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11-13-2010, 07:13 PM | #38 |
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they may have been born with a disability that if left untreated could lead to such actions but i cant agree that anyone is born bad,there is no scientific proof of that,but many factors play into someone "going bad" as we see with say Vader or Doom,these "things" that happen prove to be the catalyst for their wrong decisions and behavior,its without a doubt a matter of circumstances and how they are dealt with,but upbringing,surounding's and psychological factors also play a big part as well
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11-13-2010, 07:31 PM | #39 |
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because he/she went through stuff,as if everyone doesnt go though stuff. |
11-13-2010, 07:46 PM | #40 |
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Even a two-dimensional lump of sh*t like Doomsday had an actual reason he was so pissed off at Superman. Galactus, despite being described as a living force of nature, has a motive; he's hungry, he needs to eat to survive. To him we're all just some ants that crawled on his picnic table. Motives don't have to be complex, but they have to be believable. Blaming someone else for their problems is a popular one in Marvel. Doom took a dangerous risk with an experiment and blamed Reed when it (literally) blew up in his face. Eddie Brock failed to investigate his source on a story and lost his job when Spiderman unmasked the true Sin Eater, but rather than accept responsibility, as Parker would have, he blamed someone else. Loki never got the attention his dad's favorite son did (dumb, but common and as old as the Bible). I could go on, but in the end one can be assured in the fact that every antagonist has some kind of motivation for their actions. Even the shark in Jaws was just looking for something to eat. Sometimes the motivations make no sense to us (see: Blue and Orange Morality) but they make sense to the one who counts, which is why it's not necessary to have an intense background in psychology to write a decent Joker story. We don't know exactly why the Joker is the way he is, how much was brain damage from the chemical bath or if he was always unhinged on some level, but as long as the audience is sure he has a goal that makes some kind of sense to him, he can get away with his insanity (there's also the hints that he believes none of the people he kills is even real, which in a meta sense may make him hyper-sane!). I'm not above having my opinions challenged though, and would defy anyone to prove me wrong and name a memorable, iconic villain that was devoid of motive or even excuse in their own mind. |
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