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11-11-2010, 10:41 PM | #21 |
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Posting in quality thread.
There are a vast number of villains, antagonists, and anti-villains. For every heroic type, there is a type who mirrors that type. You could write a whole paper on just any one, and some of them go all the way back to the written word. Some are just abstracts, and in mythology, like a dream, can be interpreted as representing personifying something the hero must overcome. Some represent what the hero could become if he were to give in on a particular aspect of his morality. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby loved this trope, as nearly every hero in the Marvel universe was was some kind of reflection of the hero who instead of using their power responsibly, used it for destructive purposes. Spiderman received his powers through an accident of science, and so did many of his antagonists, but where he swore off using them for self-gain, his antagonists embraced them. Where Tony Stark swore off using his genius to create weapons, Obediah Stain had no issue with using his genius (or Tony's for that matter) to profit regardless of those who might be hurt. Professor X is determined to find acceptance for mutants through peace, only using their powers for defense, where Magneto would insure the safety of his kind through conquest and domination. Most villains, however, wouldn't consider themselves villains. Lex Luthor would say he's ruthlessly pragmatic. Doctor Doom that his genius shouldn't be constrained by the laws of ignoramuses. Even the Joker would argue that he and his humor are simply misunderstood. Some villains used to be heroes themselves. They stood above all others, and yet represented something greater, but something happened. They fell from grace, usually because of pride, aggrandizing themselves rather than what they represent. One has only to look at Lucifer in Milton's Paradise Lost. In most cases, that vice becomes their weakness. Fear, jealousy, pride, anger, that thing which the hero had the strength to overcome but the villain succumbed to becomes the thing that most divides them , and often provides the hero with the means to defeat the villain, and if the villain can overcome that flaw, and gain the strength to move past it, they can be redeemed. Sometimes, however, villains need no motivation, or have motivation, but it only makes sense to them. This kind of "blue and orange" morality is usually the sign of someone completely over the edge of sanity as we know it, or perhaps is so inherently alien that they simply wouldn't understand our notion of good and evil. This is often used in the cosmic horror story. The list goes on. I would highly recommend reading Campell's "Hero With a Thousand Faces" as a starting point, and then diving into TV Tropes.com. |
11-11-2010, 11:17 PM | #22 |
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Here's a very good (and insanely long) list of tropes associated with villains.
Villains - Television Tropes & Idioms I dare anyone here to read them all. |
11-11-2010, 11:31 PM | #23 |
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11-11-2010, 11:39 PM | #24 |
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I like the Joker. His randomness is inspiring.
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11-12-2010, 12:12 AM | #25 |
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It is my declaration that I am participating in this quality thread. Variations include, "posting in epic thread", "posting in awesome thread", and "in before the lock" (which would be an epic fail of a thread that's about to get shut down).
You may take it as the compliment it was intended to be. This thread could easily go for a hundred pages and not even begin to scratch the surface of all the different types of bad-guys in reality and fiction, and thus, there is much room for healthy discussion and debate, especially as the title is somewhat vague. What makes a villain, as opposed to what makes an effective villain, or scary villain, or sympathetic villain, or awesome villain. Whether you intended it or not, it leaves a lot of open territory, and it's a discussion I could post forever in. |
11-12-2010, 12:23 AM | #26 |
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I think the Joker might have to disagree with you, despite himself. I understand the Nolan version claims chaos as his mantra, but nothing he does is chaotic. It's all very calculating and methodical. He has the luxury of calling it chaos because the other guy didn't think of it first.
Along those lines, I would say that the most appealing fictional villains make absolutely no sense to their biggest fans, that's why they love them. They seek to apply the villain's behavior to themselves, when to do so is actually totally impossible and unrealistic. It's always easy, verging on lazy, to figure out what motivates the hero or the good guy, but even when the goal of the villain is absolute power or total control or complete disregard for what others think or their moral standards, the best villains operate outside of another's ability to fully comprehend. I would say this is the biggest failure of the SW prequels when it comes to Vader. The only way to fully explain him was to also pretty much destroy him as a character. Perhaps had a better story been told, it could have worked. Vader is a great villain. Anakin Skywalker is not. Last edited by Joseph; 11-12-2010 at 12:26 AM.. |
11-12-2010, 01:34 AM | #27 |
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Quote:
I think the Joker might have to disagree with you, despite himself. I understand the Nolan version claims chaos as his mantra, but nothing he does is chaotic. It's all very calculating and methodical. He has the luxury of calling it chaos because the other guy didn't think of it first.
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11-12-2010, 03:14 AM | #28 |
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What makes a villain = small pi pi
Last edited by laurenluna1977; 11-12-2010 at 03:16 AM.. |
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11-12-2010, 08:13 AM | #29 |
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a mustashe
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11-12-2010, 09:45 AM | #30 |
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Quote:
I would say this is the biggest failure of the SW prequels when it comes to Vader. The only way to fully explain him was to also pretty much destroy him as a character. Perhaps had a better story been told, it could have worked. Vader is a great villain. Anakin Skywalker is not.
Last edited by D00MTR0N; 11-12-2010 at 09:48 AM.. |
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