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05-31-2018, 09:21 AM | #31 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,050
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I am in agreement with SD Clutch above. Price is important, but not as much as quality. If the product is of good quality I do not mind paying a premium. I rather for it to be good and a bit pricey than low quality and cheap. That is really why I have not purchase the TRU True Heroes or the other 4'" lines. Low quality plastic product.
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Formulazl1 |
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05-31-2018, 10:38 AM | #32 |
A Makeupless Clown
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5,270
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Quote:
People keep bringing up price point and I would like to take a moment to point out that the Vamps from POC/ROC and the 30th line are realistically untouchable on the secondary market for less than $70. Absent the double clutch the figure that comes with it (Steel Brigade or Night Fox with the NCC) can be viewed as mostly unusable due to 5 POA articulation. So, if the price point is in that region it should be viewed, in the vein of the market we currently have, as competitive with other like made vehicles.
If you can make this vehicle more desirable than the VAMPs and VAMP Mark IIs, then you can reasonably look at a price point of higher. My personal assumption would be that most people saying if the price is right don't want to pay more than $25 for a vehicle, which is unlikely, no? This is possibly a smaller print run, premium vehicle that is offered through a small business with initial overhead costs to cover, so thinking that it will be a low price point should be unlikely (stop me anywhere in here if I am way off base) in the early stages and as molds are developed and cost to develop drops the company will be able to offer more products at a similar price, and when you factor in CPI adjustments, it should be more for the consumer per dollar spent in the future. Bottom line, if this product looks good, pay the price in order to fund future development and availability of more vehicles, which will in turn possibly/likely drive down prices on the VAMPs on the secondary market as demand drops. I think if your price point can be in the range of what is already selling on the secondary market then we should, as a community, embrace it. It's probably also worth mentioning that even the 5-PoA figures from those vehicles command a premium because of their head sculpts (and web gear for Nightfox). The Steel Brigade Delta is quite expensive on its own. Try price comparing those vehicles loose without the driver for starters. I'll still balk over the notion of pricing things this way, but at least the merchandise will be more comparable. I bought zero BFS horses for exactly this reason, whereas I had hoped to be buying a handful at least. I'll buy zero MARVs at $70. I'm just being honest, and maybe there are way more people who spend like you do than there are who spend like I do. It just wouldn't fly for me. I would suggest that basing price points on inflated eBay pricing is probably a bad idea. They need to look at their own actual production costs and build profit up from that. The KS should probably not turn a profit (by which I mean it shouldn't pay them back for digital sculpts, marketing, or any other sunk costs - it should just be designed to help cover tooling) because it's meant to help pay for the tooling to get them started on a web store. Put another way, once the tooling is in place they can't justify charging for tooling (depreciation being the exception) and they will be better off charging less per-vehicle than they are during the KS if they want to bring in new buyers and repeat business. Do*the "retail-is-cheaper" trick though and the KS backers will feel slighted, so they will have locked themselves into a minimum retail price that has a large profit margin (yay!), but will generate a low volume of sales (oh...) all in the name of building a profitable KS campaign which ultimately helps no one other than Kickstarter. (Did I mention those fees?) My unsolicited advice? If they mean to develop a retail product line, they should develop their business model and pricing for the retail product line FIRST and then engineer a KS campaign that works with it afterward. That means focus on the retail plan first. Their pricing on the base vehicle at retail should assume the tooling is in place and final production samples were good. Pricing should then be set ONLY to cover the production run at minimum quantities (or at least the minimum they are willing to order), depreciation on the molds (cost to retool divided by number of uses before exhaustion, plus estimated inflation by the projected mold replacement date), plus a bit of "R&D" cost recovery to slowly make back some of what they spent on modeling ("sunk costs") and to eventually help fund new "R&D." Add a relatively small profit margin on top and stop...right...there. Priced this way, they'll never lose money on a production run and if/when their product takes off their profit margin on the base vehicle will actually go up all by itself as the volume pricing from the factory goes down. Then, set the KS "go" funding level according to the volume pricing they need on the number of units they will have to sell to pay for the portion of the tooling costs they need the KS to provide. Accessories, parts, and kits are relatively easy to design, cheaper to tool/package/ship, and can be their main profit source. If for some reason that same base unit price won't work for the KS (Kickstarter's fees, for example) and they need to charge more per vehicle in the KS campaign, then they need to be upfront about that and look at campaign exclusives so backers are OK with knowingly paying more than the eventual retail price. High rollers who are ok with paying that premium will do so for early access and for goodies they can brag nobody else has. Everyone wins. For a new toy line, particularly one that is purpose-built to sell add-ons, I think they need to hook buyers with the base model at not much profit and make their profits on the endless add-ons we will all buy for each of our many MARVs. Consider: What if MTF based their bare figure pricing on 30th/Renegades figures? How many would you own at $30+++ each rather than $12? BFS prices their stuff about like that (albeit with a weapon and an armor piece or two). BFS has only ever received about $60 from me. They aren't likely to get more. MTF, on the other hand, has received a couple thousand dollars from me and I continually buy more of their stuff as it's released. Which one has made more profit from my spending? How many whales are left in this hobby as compared to minnows? Quote:
I am in agreement with SD Clutch above. Price is important, but not as much as quality. If the product is of good quality I do not mind paying a premium. I rather for it to be good and a bit pricey than low quality and cheap. That is really why I have not purchase the TRU True Heroes or the other 4'" lines. Low quality plastic product.
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05-31-2018, 01:01 PM | #33 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 514
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Thanks for all the comments everyone! I sincerely appreciate all of the support, feedback, and questions.
First off, a note on the pricing: I hate playing coy about the price point, especially since that's a huge sticking point for me on new items(I'm also a long-time collector). I do have certain goals I hope to hit for price: I want the MARV to be more affordable than a high-end model kit, but it will also have significantly more parts and functionality than most mass-retail vehicle offerings. I promise I will share the concrete pricing info as soon as I get it, and I will incorporate lead-time prior to the Kickstarter campaign so folks have time to save and plan. I can offer the following pieces of information right now: the MARV will likely have a small production run (compared with mass retail offerings), it will be comprised of over 40 parts, and paint apps are currently planned for parts of the vehicle. Quote:
People keep bringing up price point and I would like to take a moment to point out that the Vamps from POC/ROC and the 30th line are realistically untouchable on the secondary market for less than $70. Absent the double clutch the figure that comes with it (Steel Brigade or Night Fox with the NCC) can be viewed as mostly unusable due to 5 POA articulation. So, if the price point is in that region it should be viewed, in the vein of the market we currently have, as competitive with other like made vehicles.
If you can make this vehicle more desirable than the VAMPs and VAMP Mark IIs, then you can reasonably look at a price point of higher. My personal assumption would be that most people saying if the price is right don't want to pay more than $25 for a vehicle, which is unlikely, no? This is possibly a smaller print run, premium vehicle that is offered through a small business with initial overhead costs to cover, so thinking that it will be a low price point should be unlikely (stop me anywhere in here if I am way off base) in the early stages and as molds are developed and cost to develop drops the company will be able to offer more products at a similar price, and when you factor in CPI adjustments, it should be more for the consumer per dollar spent in the future. Bottom line, if this product looks good, pay the price in order to fund future development and availability of more vehicles, which will in turn possibly/likely drive down prices on the VAMPs on the secondary market as demand drops. I think if your price point can be in the range of what is already selling on the secondary market then we should, as a community, embrace it. Quote:
The first word that came to me was "SEXY!!"
Holy crud!! I know you don't want to reveal all your secrets up front, so you may already have add-ons like this already in development; but for obvious reasons, I would suggest (as one of the posts above) a dual .50 cal mount, and two different types of 4-missle launchers for some serious VAMP and STINGER upgrade/customs! This pic also answers the other question I didn't ask, looks like you can seat 4 figures AND have 1 figure standing in the turret. Not including how ever many figures can fit in the back. I plan to support this KS, cost factor will determine exactly how much I can contribute. With the various Marauder, BFS, Eagle Force, etc. Kickstarters, I'm afraid this awesome project may suffer from Kickstarter fatigue. Jason As for future turret add-ons... I have been seeing a lot of requests for missile racks/launchers. A personal choice of mine would be an unmanned gun turret, based on some real-world remote operated models. Finally, I totally understand the KS fatigue concern. I have backed and collected figures from multiple projects, and have supported several projects in the past year which are still outstanding. I will continue to keep an eye on the pulse of the community and delivery from other Kickstarter companies as I'm finalizing the MARV launch. The last thing I want to do is make fellow backers and collectors feel "stretched thin" by throwing another crowdfunded product into the marketplace at a bad time.
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05-31-2018, 01:21 PM | #34 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: U.S.
Posts: 1,748
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Zap's post above is the most on point and thoughtful/wise assessment of product pricing strategy I've read here.
But not so soft that they deteriorate within a few months/years. Nice thing about Hasbro hard plastic is that stuff lasts forever. Last edited by edgecrusher; 05-31-2018 at 01:34 PM.. |
05-31-2018, 01:28 PM | #35 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 325
|
Quote:
People keep bringing up price point and I would like to take a moment to point out that the Vamps from POC/ROC and the 30th line are realistically untouchable on the secondary market for less than $70. Absent the double clutch the figure that comes with it (Steel Brigade or Night Fox with the NCC) can be viewed as mostly unusable due to 5 POA articulation. So, if the price point is in that region it should be viewed, in the vein of the market we currently have, as competitive with other like made vehicles.
If you can make this vehicle more desirable than the VAMPs and VAMP Mark IIs, then you can reasonably look at a price point of higher. My personal assumption would be that most people saying if the price is right don't want to pay more than $25 for a vehicle, which is unlikely, no? This is possibly a smaller print run, premium vehicle that is offered through a small business with initial overhead costs to cover, so thinking that it will be a low price point should be unlikely (stop me anywhere in here if I am way off base) in the early stages and as molds are developed and cost to develop drops the company will be able to offer more products at a similar price, and when you factor in CPI adjustments, it should be more for the consumer per dollar spent in the future. Bottom line, if this product looks good, pay the price in order to fund future development and availability of more vehicles, which will in turn possibly/likely drive down prices on the VAMPs on the secondary market as demand drops. I think if your price point can be in the range of what is already selling on the secondary market then we should, as a community, embrace it. |
05-31-2018, 01:51 PM | #36 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 514
|
Hey Zap - I appreciate your well-written and insightful feedback. I've responded to a couple of things that stood out to me from your post, but please let me know if you'd like clarification or a response to other points.
Quote:
I would suggest that basing price points on inflated eBay pricing is probably a bad idea. They need to look at their own actual production costs and build profit up from that. The KS should probably not turn a profit (by which I mean it shouldn't pay them back for digital sculpts, marketing, or any other sunk costs - it should just be designed to help cover tooling) because it's meant to help pay for the tooling to get them started on a web store. Put another way, once the tooling is in place they can't justify charging for tooling (depreciation being the exception) and they will be better off charging less per-vehicle than they are during the KS if they want to bring in new buyers and repeat business. Do*the "retail-is-cheaper" trick though and the KS backers will feel slighted, so they will have locked themselves into a minimum retail price that has a large profit margin (yay!), but will generate a low volume of sales (oh...) all in the name of building a profitable KS campaign which ultimately helps no one other than Kickstarter. (Did I mention those fees?)
My unsolicited advice? If they mean to develop a retail product line, they should develop their business model and pricing for the retail product line FIRST and then engineer a KS campaign that works with it afterward. That means focus on the retail plan first. Their pricing on the base vehicle at retail should assume the tooling is in place and final production samples were good. Pricing should then be set ONLY to cover the production run at minimum quantities (or at least the minimum they are willing to order), depreciation on the molds (cost to retool divided by number of uses before exhaustion, plus estimated inflation by the projected mold replacement date), plus a bit of "R&D" cost recovery to slowly make back some of what they spent on modeling ("sunk costs") and to eventually help fund new "R&D." Add a relatively small profit margin on top and stop...right...there. Priced this way, they'll never lose money on a production run and if/when their product takes off their profit margin on the base vehicle will actually go up all by itself as the volume pricing from the factory goes down. Then, set the KS "go" funding level according to the volume pricing they need on the number of units they will have to sell to pay for the portion of the tooling costs they need the KS to provide. Accessories, parts, and kits are relatively easy to design, cheaper to tool/package/ship, and can be their main profit source. If for some reason that same base unit price won't work for the KS (Kickstarter's fees, for example) and they need to charge more per vehicle in the KS campaign, then they need to be upfront about that and look at campaign exclusives so backers are OK with knowingly paying more than the eventual retail price. High rollers who are ok with paying that premium will do so for early access and for goodies they can brag nobody else has. Everyone wins. Tooling Costs- Steel molds will likely be the largest and most substantial cost in the process Production- Initial product run after molds are made, packaging, freight, import fees, etc. Shipping and associated materials- Having been involved in KS projects from a prominent hobby creator (though not specifically toy production), I know firsthand what a HUGE cost shipping rewards can be. There will also be other costs to factor in the initial crowdfunding goal, but listed above are the main costs which will be incorporated. I would like to clarify that the MARV is intended to stand on its own. It has been designed as a complete, fully-functional product in the event that add-on kits don't fund or simply aren't wanted by a collector. I conceived of the add-on kits as enhancements that aren't necessary to complete the MARV, and I actually anticipate higher sales of the vehicle itself.
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05-31-2018, 06:44 PM | #37 |
endlesssummerofthedamned
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Midway, PA
Posts: 3,773
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I'm super-stoked for this. I'm also very grateful to be in the position to have some disposable income to help support awesome projects like Marauders and this one. Whatever the final cost of the product, I'm totally in.
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Trade: http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-jo...uff-trade.html Feedback: http://www.hisstank.com/forum/buy-se...nstrelboy.html Disclaimer: The aforementioned post is the express opinions and ideas of the poster, and do not imply that those who have taken the time to read these views on this open forum should share or agree with them. |
05-31-2018, 09:28 PM | #38 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,050
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Greg, thank you for putting this together and I look forward to supporting your project.
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Formulazl1 |
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05-31-2018, 09:52 PM | #39 |
Cobra Lab Rat
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: California
Posts: 3,046
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Oooh, if we're talking about missile launcher cabs on wheeled vehicles, there's tons of examples.
My favorite is this particular Spike Missile Launcher system on a Korean Sand Cat. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...3350681%29.jpg |
06-01-2018, 05:03 AM | #40 |
Rock-Viper
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 945
|
Dreadnock Apocalypse version might just peak my interest.
Otherwise, great looking vehicle but wouldn't suit my collection (save for above comment). |
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