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09-30-2009, 09:58 PM | #541 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: Jun 2009
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There are three things everyone needs to admit:
1. RoC sucked as a film. It just wasn't good. Some -arguably many- people liked it overall, but as a film, it wasn't a good one. 2. RoC was a box-office success. Maybe not a raging success, maybe not the huge victory Transformers was, but it was nevertheless a success. 3. The RoC toyline has not, as of yet, proved to be a success, and it looks right now like it won't be. BUT, Christmas sales will be the true test of the line, not sales right now. So no one can make a true judgement call at this moment in time one way or the other. C'mon, agree with me. You know you want to. I may me a "hater", but I purchased a lot of ROC product. As of October 1st, my totals- 1 Crimson Hydra 2 Steel Crushers 4 Snake Trax 6 Target Excl. EEL/Wave crushers 6 Target CLAW Repaints 2 Wal Mart Night Creeper 2 pks 1 Wal Mart Monkey Wrench 2 pk That adds up to more than I care to think about, so I'm doing my part! This goes to show Hasbro just might know what they're doing in terms of catering to the various joe fans, and I never rooted for failure for the film or the toyline. Bring on POC! Last edited by Beckley; 09-30-2009 at 10:05 PM.. |
10-01-2009, 03:41 AM | #542 |
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I'm just expressing my attitude.
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10-01-2009, 12:55 PM | #543 |
Hisstank Ninja
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It's all a matter of degree isn't it? I don't expect every film I see made to exactly the same standard and in many terms,Roc doesn't even come close in quality to what I consider the best films I've seen.
But within it's genre/bracket, I thought RISE OF COBRA delivered the goods and was a great movie. Nothing is going to chance that opinion of mine: For an action movie based on toy figures, I thought it was excellent and I loved it. And no, that's not using the "turn off your brain" excuse or "apologising" for the film. I just judge it for what it was, not what is 'should' or 'could' have been. Would you say RoC was, without qualification, a good film or not? Because I think (and I could be wrong!) that you feel it succeded in being what it wanted to be, but that judged by any kind of artistic standard, it could be considered a bad movie. Am I right, or wrong?
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10-01-2009, 01:43 PM | #544 |
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I might find Jackson Pollock an artist you might see random paint on a canvas. You might see Andy Warhol as an artist and I might see someone who creates random crap. Slumdog Millionaire won best Oscar...... the highest artistic award in Hollywood and the movie was pure garbage to me! |
10-01-2009, 02:02 PM | #545 |
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If the toys are bought by the stores and don't sell, it's still not a success for Hasbro... it means lower quantity buys for future items and lines, and lower reorders. It's a short term gain, but can't be considered a success.
Let's pray the ROC line succeeds, or PoC will not be stocked well at all. Transformers 2 made what 832,413,189.00 million dollars. A success correct? But it was panned by a lot of critics and movie going audiences. That can in fact effect future ticket sales (for sequels) as the people who ignored the critics only to agree with them might say, well I will never see another transformers movie again, correct? But wait Transformers 3 has been green-lit today! But for right now, Paramount (even knowing that the movie was panned) is touting Transformers 2 as a success and will proceed with an even bigger budget and probably even more insane action (in sequel) rather than plot formula for the next film. A team that wins the Superbowl does not say we are a success now but we might lose next season so I am not a success. A boxer does not say hey I won the title but I might lose it next fight so I am not a success. Hasbro, took and made orders for ROC. Those orders were sold to the stores in mass quantities........ those stores purchased those toys and guess what they are a success! You cannot really dispute that. Hell, Target for one had three sets of exclusives GI JOE figures ordered and paid for only to discount them months later............ did they lose money? I don't know, neither do you but what we do know is they went ahead and ordered MORE exclusive stuff a year later. So the fact that they bought, paid and then discounted their GI JOE toys did not stop them from re-ordering the new stuff. Kinda makes you wonder if your argument is flawed. The fact is Hasbro made and was paid for every ROC figure you see. Once these figures are sold by purchase point, sale or drastic discount the stores will order more, yes in lower quantities but that was to be expected. Do you think they thought they could sustain the same sales every few months as the sales that accompanied a freakin' movie........No way. Now with that said I am sure that they would rather sell a million figures a month......... but that's not happening so they are grateful that they had such a high demand for these toys to begin with. Also lets not forget that the DVD is coming out weeks before Christmas...... that will change the pace of these figures.............. POC will be stocked just fine...... it wont be ROC quantites but nor should it be. movie (launch) lines are the exception not the norm. |
10-01-2009, 04:02 PM | #546 |
Hisstank Ninja
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what are your qualifications to determine art? How can you say it had no artistic standards when art is in the eye of the beholder. Your argument is flawed as art is so subjective that you have no matrix to determine what is and is not art in someone elses mind.
I might find Jackson Pollock an artist you might see random paint on a canvas. You might see Andy Warhol as an artist and I might see someone who creates random crap. Slumdog Millionaire won best Oscar...... the highest artistic award in Hollywood and the movie was pure garbage to me! The problem is that a lot of people want to confuse "I enjoyed it" with "it was a good movie". Those are two fundamentally different things. Art can be measured by a number of objective standards. "Liking it" has nothing to do with those. Quote:
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Hasbro, took and made orders for ROC. Those orders were sold to the stores in mass quantities........ those stores purchased those toys and guess what they are a success! You cannot really dispute that. Hell, Target for one had three sets of exclusives GI JOE figures ordered and paid for only to discount them months later............ did they lose money? I don't know, neither do you but what we do know is they went ahead and ordered MORE exclusive stuff a year later. So the fact that they bought, paid and then discounted their GI JOE toys did not stop them from re-ordering the new stuff. Kinda makes you wonder if your argument is flawed..
The example you cited is also not a fair example. The 25th line was a small alunch, the RoC launch was a huge one with a movie tie in. Target is gambling that if a small, relatively un-advertised set of exclusives does just ok, the exclusives during a huge brand launch with a big-name, big-money movie will do much better. If however, this go around they don't do well, they may choose not to continue large orders for a line that may be supported by a cartoon. You're looking short-term and thinking Hasbro is happy about dumping product on retailers regardless of what happens that. That's a flawed argument because its a fundamental misunderstanding of what Hasbro would consider a success. Bottom line, Hasbro needs strong sales for this line to be considered a success. We'll know after the DVD release, and Christmas whether or not they achieved that. But right now, it's not possible to make that call. Quote:
Bottom line, we don't know yet. Hasbro dumping product to retailers isn't evidence of a success.
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10-01-2009, 05:22 PM | #547 |
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I don't think that the word dump is appropriate on what Hasbro has done. that is soley your way of describing what is going on....another way is supply and demand.
Hasbro filled orders at the request at whatever chain (store) requested them. That is smart business. Its the stores fault if they over ordered not Hasbro. I think that ROC is selling at a nice pace but simple math puts it in a position to appear to be overstocked and over looked. That is not Hasbro's fault........ should they have said: "Ah, no...... I wont fulfill that request for 30 boxes because you are ordering to much." No they are in the business of selling and making toys....they have done that. When you look at mass producing a product the more you make the cheaper it costs...... As of right now Hasbro has a successful toy line. They have been selling of the rack and its been reported but besides that I have seen the shelves on a constant basis and they are either empty or with newer product. I highly doubt that Toys-R-Us, Walmart, Target and or K-mart replaced their old stock with new stock. The old stuff sold out and they replaced it with newer stuff. Is this indicative of the whole country, No. But in the last two months I have been to Manhattan, LA, Florida and South Carolina and I have seen the same thing all over the place. But I will agree that its hard to really gage the success of ROC until numbers are released and or Hasbro makes a statement concerning ROC. We will have to agree to disagree........ I will say this as far as Art goes........ You are not getting what I am saying...sigh.....you cannot judge art or have a mutual consensus on what Art should be defined against because its subjective but for the sake of argument what do you define art as besides personal taste and we can go from there. Bottom line is that Hasbro did not Dump product they filled orders and they sold a crap-load of GI JOES. |
10-02-2009, 01:03 AM | #548 |
Hisstank Ninja
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Hasbro filled orders at the request at whatever chain (store) requested them. That is smart business. Its the stores fault if they over ordered not Hasbro. ... should they have said: "Ah, no...... I wont fulfill that request for 30 boxes because you are ordering to much." No they are in the business of selling and making toys....they have done that....As of right now Hasbro has a successful toy line.
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I will say this as far as Art goes........ You are not getting what I am saying...sigh.....you cannot judge art or have a mutual consensus on what Art should be defined against because its subjective but for the sake of argument what do you define art as besides personal taste and we can go from there.
To answer your question, I'm not out to define "art", or define art against something. The question I think you were getting at though is, how do I feel one can measure or judge art. It certainly depends on the medium, but here are a few thoughts. Is it composed well? Is there any skill present, and to what level does the skill employed measure up? How does it measure against other comparable works generally agreed upon to be good? What do those knowledgeable in the genre say, and is there any kind of consensus? Again, enjoyment of any art is certainly in the eye of the beholder. But that by no means answers the question of whether the art has any merit. As an example, it's hard to make the argument that if I -lacking any artistic skill whatsoever- were to draw a charcoal sketch of a woman on a piece of paper, that anyone would consider that good art. And if someone else who's very skilled with charcoal drawings who has experience spends hours composing a charcoal sketch of the same woman, paying attention to the lines, the shadowing, the detail, the angles, the scale, etc, anyone at all familiar with charcoal sketches could tell you that his picture had more artistic merit than mine did. That same person might like my sketch more, for whatever personal reason, but in terms of artistic merit, the other guy wins, not me. Quote:
...and with the timing of the line, and the timing of the DVD, Christmas sales will be the best indicator to retailers of the sustainability of the line.
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10-02-2009, 10:17 AM | #549 |
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LOL........... I did agree only to dissagree within two sentences. Here is what I was trying to say.
I agreed we wont really know until Christmas how well the toys have done......... but I don't agree that they are a failure, hence we have to agree to disagree. Okay, now as far as Hasbro is concerned.......Hasbro is no different than any other company. They deal with supply and demand. there is no proof that they promised anything. You have no basis that Hasbro ever said anything like, I promise the movie will create huge demand. You made that notion completely up. We don't know what Hasbro said and or promised if they did at all. You cannot provide a link, e-mail and or Hasbro rep that said: "Hey within 60 days all the toys you order from us will be sold." So for all we know the Toys are selling right on pace and they are a success. But again we both agree that Hasbro has done well (another way of saying success so I will take it...LOL) so far with the toys and that is all I have been saying so thanks for finally understanding and agreeing.......cause that was getting frustrating. I could not see how you could not understand what I was saying? But I do agree with you that long term success is in question but we both agreed that we could not really gage that until the Holiday season or at least until the DVD hits. Now for ART..... the more you post about Art the more your inexperience with art is prevalent, take the charcoal art for example. If I like Abstract art then I would not like the clean lines, or the angles and scale.........I would like the more rough look, the more interpretation look as opposed to a clean look. WHY? Cause Art can not be judged by a single set of eyes. Here is a link to a person who uses Bird Feces as art. Guess what he is an artist........ Do I like his work..... its interesting but I wont be buying anything soon. But its Art! Bird Feces as Digital Fine Art Someone who went into see ROC might find the art departments rendition of future technology is beautiful and well crafted. The CGI is an art form, have we seen better yes. Have we seen worst yes..............but its still ART!' The costumes...........an Artist made them. People get Oscars for Costumes. The Script was written for someone was has been nominated for awards in ART of writing. Alan Silvestri has been nominated for an Oscar multiple times for his work as a Composer..... can you really argue that he is not an artist? He worked on GI JOE as well. Seriously with all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Art.... you cannot just box it up into something you like and expect that - that is the definition of art......well I guess you could..........lol...........but you would just be WRONG. |
10-02-2009, 10:57 AM | #550 |
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Is it worth me saying any more?
I'd be staggered if anyone considered a GI JOE film should be first and foremost 'art' prior to seeing it. ROC was indeed compiled by many 'artists', all (and yes, I emphasize 'all') with great and diverse talent.
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