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03-07-2024, 04:18 PM | #31 |
Ne Plus Ulta
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 4,849
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LT. STONE, (from Extreme,) is USMC. I'm thinking about making WOLF SPIDER Marine Raider with the rank of captain to give the Marine officer corps some representation on the JOE team.
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03-08-2024, 07:49 AM | #32 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,375
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Quote:
The G.I. Joe team, when introduced by Generals Austin and Flagg in Larry Hama's 1982 original story "Operation: Lady Doomsday", is introduced to the reader by it's real name at the Pentagon - "Special Counter-Terrorist Group Delta", which is given the Code Name: G.I. Joe. They are a "tier one" special operations force of the United States Army, under the authority of the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC).
While other branches of the armed forces have their own special operations units, service members can volunteer for selection to Special Counter-Terrorist Group Delta. If they pass selection, they move to the next phase, with some even making it into the G.I. Joe Unit. I think part of this - we also forget this most of the time - is that because of this franchise world we live in, we forget that GI Joes are toys first, media second, but as kids we understood this, and most of the backstory is kind of just made up in our heads, with us plugging in the elements we like from the cartoon or comic. It's funny that this classic issue - I mean, I don't know about the rest of you, but I read the first issue many, many more times than any other one (I managed to get the digest version as a kid which helped, because I was too young to get into the comic when it first came out) - stated that so explicitly and I don't think I've ever seen it anywhere else... I'm sure it popped up in the comic (especially the more recent ones) here and there but it almost seems to be largely ignored... Quote:
With all respect to those who served in all branches, when it comes to the debated Mega Marines, do you think that the writer of the file cards did not realize the difference between a soldier and a Marine? That person could have been under the impression that the word "soldier" was a generic term for a military person. If I remember right,Mr. Hama was not writing all the file cards at that time. As for Mirage's additional file cards, I call laziness. Again, I state this with all respect towards those who know and served.
If this is the case, then they could be considered Marines. I mean, I suppose this could have happened later in the line, when Hama stopped being involved in the file cards, but even then, guys like Kirk Bozigian was on the team for the entire 1982-1994 duration, right? He would certainly have known the difference. I do think that some of the elements in the organization, ranks, etc. of the RAH team strongly reflect Hama's own experience in the military. Now, I don't want to denigrate his service whatsoever, but we should remember that his time in the Army was very limited. I don't know how much exposure he would have had to SOF at the time but we should also remember that special operations in the '60s and '70s were still in their - if not infancy, then adolescence, maybe? And the fact that he was in the Army in the first place, and not the Marines or one of the other branches, certainly would have had an effect on the development of the Joes being a largely Army-based organization. I mean, sure, that was inevitable given the Army is the biggest branch with the biggest pool of combat arms types who would have joined a unit like the Joes, but still. There should have been more Marines from the get go, not just one or two main guys (out of dozens) from the classic years, and some nobodies from the post-Sunbow era (sorry but it's true). One offs like Mainframe are the exception, not the rule. This would explain the weird rank structure too, and how almost all of the Joes are mere E4s. Like, you wouldn't join any kind of SOF unit right out of trade training, right? I know this stuff changes but I read that you had to be an E5 even to try out for Special Forces. Maybe if you join the 75th Rangers but GI Joe was supposed to be top tier - in today's world, you would have had to have been a green beret or Navy SEAL BEFORE getting onto a team of Joes, and the amount of experience described in pretty much any of the Hama filecards indicate several years of experience. Don't get me started on the officers (or lack thereof). I know people hate on the films but I think that's one thing they got right. I don't really care if she was a Marine or not, but Lady Jaye *should* be a captain as indicated by the pic above, given how her role developed. And yeah, Duke is "supposed" to be the top sergeant, but it makes way, way, way more sense for him to be at least a major. I think the best way to reconcile it is that he WAS the first sergeant when he joined, but finally relented and took a special commission to head up the team in the field, at Hawk's insistence. For me, you can either keep GI Joe in the '80s, but if you want to expand or reboot the story into contemporary times, you need to reflect contemporary reality. Having a largely-Army based team full of E4s who are supposedly highly experienced and the best of the best reflects Larry Hama's experience as a soldier in the Army, in Vietnam, but elements of this story do feel somewhat out of place today. That would make a great story, actually...
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... Last edited by DPrime; 03-08-2024 at 07:52 AM.. |
03-08-2024, 08:31 AM | #33 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Boulder
Posts: 1,589
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Quote:
I do think that some of the elements in the organization, ranks, etc. of the RAH team strongly reflect Hama's own experience in the military. Now, I don't want to denigrate his service whatsoever, but we should remember that his time in the Army was very limited. I don't know how much exposure he would have had to SOF at the time but we should also remember that special operations in the '60s and '70s were still in their - if not infancy, then adolescence, maybe?
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03-08-2024, 09:02 AM | #34 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,375
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Offhand I know he was a combat engineer, i.e. a guy who disarmed explosives, etc. Tunnel Rat was based on him - I don't know the specifics, but I think he was one of those guys. I think he only served a regular, three-year stint. He was definitely enlisted, but not sure what rank he made before getting out - I'm guessing E5? I seem to remember seeing a pic with him in uniform with sergeant stripes, after he returned home. Not sure what years but he was in Vietnam.
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... Last edited by DPrime; 03-08-2024 at 09:07 AM.. |
03-08-2024, 10:42 AM | #35 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,036
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Quote:
Yeah it's funny that even though the comic is largely regarded as "canon", many people seem to forget that.
I think part of this - we also forget this most of the time - is that because of this franchise world we live in, we forget that GI Joes are toys first, media second, but as kids we understood this, and most of the backstory is kind of just made up in our heads, with us plugging in the elements we like from the cartoon or comic. It's funny that this classic issue - I mean, I don't know about the rest of you, but I read the first issue many, many more times than any other one (I managed to get the digest version as a kid which helped, because I was too young to get into the comic when it first came out) - stated that so explicitly and I don't think I've ever seen it anywhere else... I'm sure it popped up in the comic (especially the more recent ones) here and there but it almost seems to be largely ignored... No way, but I do think you're kind of onto something. I mean, I suppose this could have happened later in the line, when Hama stopped being involved in the file cards, but even then, guys like Kirk Bozigian was on the team for the entire 1982-1994 duration, right? He would certainly have known the difference. I do think that some of the elements in the organization, ranks, etc. of the RAH team strongly reflect Hama's own experience in the military. Now, I don't want to denigrate his service whatsoever, but we should remember that his time in the Army was very limited. I don't know how much exposure he would have had to SOF at the time but we should also remember that special operations in the '60s and '70s were still in their - if not infancy, then adolescence, maybe? And the fact that he was in the Army in the first place, and not the Marines or one of the other branches, certainly would have had an effect on the development of the Joes being a largely Army-based organization. I mean, sure, that was inevitable given the Army is the biggest branch with the biggest pool of combat arms types who would have joined a unit like the Joes, but still. There should have been more Marines from the get go, not just one or two main guys (out of dozens) from the classic years, and some nobodies from the post-Sunbow era (sorry but it's true). One offs like Mainframe are the exception, not the rule. This would explain the weird rank structure too, and how almost all of the Joes are mere E4s. Like, you wouldn't join any kind of SOF unit right out of trade training, right? I know this stuff changes but I read that you had to be an E5 even to try out for Special Forces. Maybe if you join the 75th Rangers but GI Joe was supposed to be top tier - in today's world, you would have had to have been a green beret or Navy SEAL BEFORE getting onto a team of Joes, and the amount of experience described in pretty much any of the Hama filecards indicate several years of experience. Don't get me started on the officers (or lack thereof). I know people hate on the films but I think that's one thing they got right. I don't really care if she was a Marine or not, but Lady Jaye *should* be a captain as indicated by the pic above, given how her role developed. And yeah, Duke is "supposed" to be the top sergeant, but it makes way, way, way more sense for him to be at least a major. I think the best way to reconcile it is that he WAS the first sergeant when he joined, but finally relented and took a special commission to head up the team in the field, at Hawk's insistence. For me, you can either keep GI Joe in the '80s, but if you want to expand or reboot the story into contemporary times, you need to reflect contemporary reality. Having a largely-Army based team full of E4s who are supposedly highly experienced and the best of the best reflects Larry Hama's experience as a soldier in the Army, in Vietnam, but elements of this story do feel somewhat out of place today. That would make a great story, actually... I think that very early on, especially the first year of the toys and comics that the idea was that G.I. Joe was an Army super team -- and I totally agree that Marvel Issue 1 is probably the most re-read issue of all time, second only to Issue 21. Furthermore, I think Rock-n-Roll's comments in Issue 11 "Pipeline Ploy" about "We ask for replacements, and what do they send us? A four-eyed medic and a Jarhead" (or something like that) illustrates further that the team was originally an Army team, that was now apparently branching out. As you point out, the Toys are first and foremost the "Canon" of G.I. Joe, and with that Hasbro was obviously expanding the team out to include other branches of the military after the line's initial launch: Series 2 contains USMC, USN, and USAF (I laugh at the fact that G.I. Joe is predominately an Army team with a USAF pilot who launches from a USN aircraft carrier - talk about diversity!). So, by year Two, G.I. Joe had already incorporated members from the other three branches, but at this point, I would still consider them an "Army Team." Then in Year 3 (1984) Cutter as a USCG is obviously gratuitous as even implied on his file card, and besides Cutter, the only other non-Army member added that year was Deep Six. In 1985, the Joe Team gained two more USN members - Shipwreck and Keel Haul - the other 13 new members are all Army. Then in 1986, they gained three USMC - Leatherneck, Mainframe, & Sgt. Slaughter, one USAF - Slipstream - and one USN - Wetsuit. But again the other eight new members (I'm not counting new versions of existing members) are all Army. In 1987, I think the only new non-Army member was Payload. So, I think, as you've pointed out, via the Toys, G.I. Joe was envisioned originally as an Army super team that members of other branches could join. As an adult with my own "Joe-verse" canon, and the fact that I have two sons in the military (Army and USAF), I have tried to balance the branches more by making certain characters members of different branches of the military. For example, you can easily make Lowlight a Marine sniper. Also, Lift Ticket could be a USAF CSAR Pilot - in my head canon Fast Draw and Repeater are SMA/CSAR - which is what my son does in the USAF. In my personal canon, I have also made team members such as Steeler, Clutch, Zap, and Mutt & Junkyard USMC and Lifeline, Airtight, Barbeque, and Ripcord USAF. Jason |
03-08-2024, 03:20 PM | #36 |
Commando
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Britain
Posts: 3,840
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If I was to make Ripcord anything other than Army, I'd sooner make him a SEAL.
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03-08-2024, 05:36 PM | #37 |
Just a fan
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: NY
Posts: 8,614
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03-08-2024, 05:43 PM | #38 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,375
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Quote:
Quote:
I think that very early on, especially the first year of the toys and comics that the idea was that G.I. Joe was an Army super team -- and I totally agree that Marvel Issue 1 is probably the most re-read issue of all time, second only to Issue 21.
Quote:
Furthermore, I think Rock-n-Roll's comments in Issue 11 "Pipeline Ploy" about "We ask for replacements, and what do they send us? A four-eyed medic and a Jarhead" (or something like that) illustrates further that the team was originally an Army team, that was now apparently branching out.
Quote:
As you point out, the Toys are first and foremost the "Canon" of G.I. Joe, and with that Hasbro was obviously expanding the team out to include other branches of the military after the line's initial launch: Series 2 contains USMC, USN, and USAF (I laugh at the fact that G.I. Joe is predominately an Army team with a USAF pilot who launches from a USN aircraft carrier - talk about diversity!). So, by year Two, G.I. Joe had already incorporated members from the other three branches, but at this point, I would still consider them an "Army Team."
Then in Year 3 (1984) Cutter as a USCG is obviously gratuitous as even implied on his file card, and besides Cutter, the only other non-Army member added that year was Deep Six. In 1985, the Joe Team gained two more USN members - Shipwreck and Keel Haul - the other 13 new members are all Army. Then in 1986, they gained three USMC - Leatherneck, Mainframe, & Sgt. Slaughter, one USAF - Slipstream - and one USN - Wetsuit. But again the other eight new members (I'm not counting new versions of existing members) are all Army. In 1987, I think the only new non-Army member was Payload. So, I think, as you've pointed out, via the Toys, G.I. Joe was envisioned originally as an Army super team that members of other branches could join. As an adult with my own "Joe-verse" canon, and the fact that I have two sons in the military (Army and USAF), I have tried to balance the branches more by making certain characters members of different branches of the military. For example, you can easily make Lowlight a Marine sniper. Also, Lift Ticket could be a USAF CSAR Pilot - in my head canon Fast Draw and Repeater are SMA/CSAR - which is what my son does in the USAF. In my personal canon, I have also made team members such as Steeler, Clutch, Zap, and Mutt & Junkyard USMC and Lifeline, Airtight, Barbeque, and Ripcord USAF. Jason But yeah, people shouldn't get too worked up about "canon", ESPECIALLY when it comes to Joes. Even when there are official stories and stuff - I mean, people do realize it's all just made up, right?
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03-08-2024, 08:56 PM | #39 |
US military family
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fort Campbell, Kentucky
Posts: 2,218
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Quote:
The action figure, Tunnel Rat, was designed to have the physical likeness of Larry Hama but, as I understand it, not to have the same training or mission tasks as he had in that war.
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... freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. The only way they can inherit the freedom we have known is if we fight for it, protect it, defend it and then hand it to them with the well thought lessons of how they in their lifetime must do the same... - Ronald Reagan |
03-08-2024, 09:54 PM | #40 |
Just a fan
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: NY
Posts: 8,614
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Quote:
Larry Hama was enlisted and served in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers 1969-1971 with the 18th Engineer Brigade in Vietnam. They were responsible for several construction projects in and around Qui Nhon building an airfield, warehouses, bridges, etc. He may have had a part in all or none of these projects.
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