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08-12-2018, 01:56 AM | #21 |
Cobra HR Director
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Modesto, CA
Posts: 1,140
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Thank you ALL for your responses. I have had these discussions with Marvel Fans, DC Fans, and GI Joe Fans, and I wanted to offer up a more civil approach to our criticisms of film and product. I know people from Hasbro, from the Club, and among the collectors and Hisstankers that are as passionate about GI Joe as anyone else, and I believe the Club and Hasbro has tried to keep the collectors happy and still sell a product. "Passion" has become a word we use to excuse poor manners and rudeness. Someone above mentioned the added security of sitting behind a keyboard and monitor using the anonymity of this medium to lash out. Well, it happens. Mine was meant to be a call for us, in OUR COMMUNITY, to be better than other fan bases. The ugliness alone may prevent anyone from trying to start a new club, or from championing a re-introduction of the brand at Hasbro. That would be a sad thing. I submit that GI Joe, like a lot of toys, are part of our pop culture fabric. Through play, we have learned to deal with the horrors of war and terrorism in a small way.
I apologize for my generalizations about Star Wars. I was 12 when the 1st movie came out. It forever changed me. The original score still brings tears to my eyes. When I served on a US Navy ship, that song was our replenishment break-away song. The politics and the drama wrapped around the things we care about sometimes tarnishes those things. I will take personal responsibility for ensuring my grandchildren have access to GI Joes. Even the Flagg. Maybe not the Defiant... If I have offended anyone, it wasn't my intent. Let's celebrate the toy we all love, and find new ways to keep the brand alive until GI Joe once again takes up the Battle Cry and makes his and her presence felt in the toy world. I celebrate the freedom that this site brings to all of us to express our feelings about GI Joe. Remember that we are all people, and there is a drought of civility in our world. Let us be mindful of that as we move forward from this. May the Force be with you all. Yo Joe.
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08-12-2018, 02:26 AM | #22 |
Filecard Maker
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,300
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Its always a fine line.
Personally if I'm a fan I try to keep it positive, but I'm not gonna ignore a hobbies failings either. Good example...for whatever faults ROC had...as a film I actually liked it. Sure it wasn't Joe I was used to. But as an action film designed to not only reinvent G.I. Joe to a new generation but appeal to as wide an audience as possible. It was not ARAH...but as a Summer shut your brain off and watch an action flick...it wasn't bad. Now did it fall short? On nearly every level from the character changes, to some of the actors and even the toyline...yeah it fell hard on its face. Similarly I felt the same about the first two Transformers Bay films. After three it was so repetitive even I stopped defending them. Jem also had issues as well...Its actually not a bad story. Its is however a HORRIBLE adaption of what we originally fell in love with. As for Star Wars...look I've been watching SW since the beginning...yes I was old enough to have seen ep 4 in theater when it debuted the first run. And for better or worse I loved all 3 films from that trilogy. When the prequels showed up...I probably loved them a little less then the original trilogy. Their actually not horrible films, but needlessly between over explaining The Force, and the odd moments that don't fit what was established...like Ben not knowing about Leia etc...its markedly the lesser trilogy. Its far from awful, but you do have to acknowledge stuff like how terrible a character Jar Jar is, or Hayden's less than great performances. Stuff like Clone Wars cartoon help to make that series fit better. I will admit...as a fan for as long as I have been...the scrapping of the EU rubbed me the wrong way. Its hard to say, "I loved what has been done for years...but that doesn't matter now." Its a little like parents getting divorced and being forced to call the new guy in your Mom's life 'Dad'...as if your real Dad never mattered. BUT I was willing to give the new Disneyverse its fair chance. AND I loved Rebels. And I loved Rogue One. And I also loved Han Solo. And while I felt TFA was made to be a safe retread of ep 4 with new characters I also didn't hate it. It maybe was a bit too similar to both ep 4, 6 and 1...but I found it to have enough unanswered questions that I was looking forward to ep 8. Episode 8...was a rough episode. My entire family walked out of a theater for the only time in our watching SW product say, "I didn't really like that film." It has some good moments. The bomber fight is decent. So is the saber fight between Kylo and Rey...and the fight between Kylo and Luke. But for the most part cinemas slowest space chase ever with a side bar to go to a casino planet for a plot that end up failing miserably and getting more people killed, while trashing all the questions the last film brought up...the questions that were bringing fans back for this film...well it just left a seriously sour taste in people mouths. NOW...lets talk about the toxic fans. Look you have a right to like or not like a film. But the level of insanity that has cropped up since ep 1 has driven Jake Llyod to awful places. And caused the disgusting racist attacks on John Boyega, Ahmed Best, and Kelly Marie Tran is just unforgivable. Yeah...I didn't like TLJ. But not enough to hate the actors or bully them online to a breaking point. Sure I might say I didn't care for such and such's performance (Channing in ROC)...that's disgusting behavior by any means. Yeah I hope the next film is better. And frankly Solo was a better film than TLJ, so those that boycotted it...well that was arrogant entitlement and you missed a good film. Lastly I hope I like ep 9 is better than ep 8...but if I don't will I complain about it? Sure. Enough to throw a fit and boycott more films or demand a film be REMADE, or will I trash the actors who were in it...no. And its pretty sad that there are people that do that. Just one man's opinion. |
08-12-2018, 03:38 AM | #23 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: salem ma
Posts: 181
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I cant believe people are buying into the Disney toxic fandom line. Last Jedi was bad. It did just over half the box office of forcecawakens that had largely the same characters. I saw FA 7 times in theater. Last jedi once. Solo failed because no one cared to see a solo stand alone much less someone else picking up for ford. It didnt help that it was okay but not good.
The joes were killed by retaliation. They released the first wave ahead of thr movie. The movie was delayed. The first wave went on clearance and hasbro had nothing ready tonfill the void. When it came out they reshipped wave one which had already been on clearance. As far as disliking the last fss figures. No. I dont care for them. If you do thats great, Im glad youre getting the figures you want. Im going to slowly pick up the figures i want from the past 10 years and call it a day. Its pretty clear that Hasbro wants to market the new movie to kids. I expect the toys for the new movie to be in 5 or six inch scale like Avengers figures now. I get that and wish them luck. Im not toxic, i just know that the future of the line isnt aimed at me. |
08-12-2018, 09:14 AM | #24 |
retro O-rings, baby!
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 829
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I really respect the OP for this effort.
IMO this forum is one of the better ones out there for figures, in terms of being thoughtful and well-reasoned and rejecting ad-hominem attacks, but it’s a topic that deserves attention everywhere these days. I’d like to reply more directly, but frankly I’m distracted at the moment by some of the statements that have been made here about Disney creators and representation. In terms of TLJ, it’s very true that there’s been a huge variety of reasons for disliking it, TLJ, and not all of those reasons have gotten equal attention. A large portion of the criticism has indeed been about race and gender/gender roles, but a large part, perhaps an equal part, has been about Luke and the long chase and the quality/usefulness of the scenes on Canto Bight as well. Much like criticism of TFA was split between people upset by the similarity of that movie to ANH (and Han’s death, Kylo repeating the whiny punk essence of Anakin, another superweapon, etc) and people upset by efforts to move away from the traditional standard of whitebread characters, so TLJ reactions were divided. And so, just like TFA (but on a larger scale), reactions to TLJ were a mix of legitimate criticism and outright hatred. While I’m not certain that one of those groups actually got that much more critical attention that the other (people wrote about Luke so much, for instance), I’d like to grant for the sake of discussion that the racism/sexism bucket got more attention...and then ask how exactly that’s a bad thing? If the reply is merely that the one, non-racist, non-sexist group got inaccurately lumped with the racist, sexist group, then ok. I can respect that line of argument easily; whether it’s true or false, it’s a valid case if true. But much of the blowback to TLJ, and “Disneywars” generally (which I like a lot, BTW, though nowhere near the OT) that has come from people claiming to belong to the respectable group has actually been (in part, alongside other criticisms mentioned above) taking the form of saying “I’m not racist/sexist, but I object to these efforts to fight racism and sexism, and consider these cures to be worse than the disease” or arguing that companies should pander to the prejudices of their markets, or arguing that representation should be subordinated to the goal of making sure mainstream audiences are maximally insultated from other people’s problems/marginalized statuses, rather than nudged to do more to help them. And when this kind of doubletalking “anti-racist, but anti-anti-racist” crap and it’s sexist equivalent enter the picture, to say nothing of explicit hatred, otherwise legitimate points of film criticism or fan opinion pretty much vanish to zero in terms of importance in the public conversation. IMO people who feel “lumped” should direct their anger at the racists and sexists screwing up the conversation for everybody, not Disney or pop-culture journalists for trying to fight back. In terms of Disney’s posture, I think it’s quite proper for them to call out the crappiness, both from the explicit haters and from the ones on the fence, those half-articulating alt-righty, anti-“pc” views and at the same time halfway denying them. Instead of thinking they should avoid “controversy” or “divisiveness” by clearly calling racists and sexists bad people, I would rather they put a placard in front of every one of their films saying, in their choice of language, “those who believe in racism or sexism are, so long as they maintain these views, personally inferior individuals whom we regard as morally unworthy of viewing our films. Out of respect for our legitimate fans, our communities, and ourselves, we request without respect that these individuals remove themselves from this viewing, and go home to rethink their lives.” To me there’s a constant through-line between Joe, Star Wars, and Star Trek, all three of which I love, which is the idea of a politics based on human rights, justice, and equality, something that is essentially founded on personal participation (including through personal suffering and risk) and an ethics or morality of commitment to these ideals. While I’d actually agree with some of the critics here that Joe may have handled some of these topics in a more effective way, and earlier, I think it’s very much obvious that TLJ’s values were in the right place, and that much of the backlash has been Cobra-like pushback to that, whether explicit or doubletalk-y like I tried to outline above. And at the end of the day, the moral stance is the most important part of all of this, because Star Wars, like Joe, is ultimately about a call to be a better person. As hammy as the scene with the kids at the end of TLJ was, it is correct — the world really does need everyone to become more like Luke, or like Rey, to find their own honorable path and try to make the world better. And that starts with drawing a sharp line against both hatred and the abdicatory preference for just ignoring it all. Like the OP was saying, this kind of shitiness (hatred, verbal abuse, using online spaces as toilets into which to purge bullshit and unrestricted anger in general) needs to stop. It’s not just a movie when people are advancing these hateful views and engaging in online harassment. It’s part of all of our responsibilities to push back against it everywhere in our lives, including in our hobbies. Ironically, that’s the one thing the alt-right does seem to understand. Last edited by books; 08-12-2018 at 09:33 AM.. |
08-12-2018, 10:59 AM | #25 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 945
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Quote:
It would be easier to accept, if not for the fact that so much of the criticism was explicitly racist and sexist. John Boyega, Daisy Ridley, and Kelly Tran all suffered personal, bigoted attacks which had nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the film.
Even right here on Hisstank we have fans who scream at the top of their lungs about “social justice warriors” and other imaginary enemies, as if diversity is somehow a personal attack on them. It is disgusting. The toxic fans are the fans who spread lies like this. |
08-12-2018, 11:03 AM | #26 |
I just want foam gliders.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tooele (two-willa), Utah
Posts: 18,727
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Quote:
That’s an outright lie. All three of the characters they played were criticized because they are poorly conceived and executed characters, but there wasn’t any attack on them from any significant portion of the fandom because of their race or gender. It’s dishonest hysterics like this that then make up nonsensical attacks such as “toxic fans” to criticize and shout down any opinion contrary to their agenda.
The toxic fans are the fans who spread lies like this. It happened.
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08-12-2018, 11:14 AM | #27 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: U.S.
Posts: 1,748
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Quote:
And when this kind of doubletalking “anti-racist, but anti-anti-racist” crap and it’s sexist equivalent enter the picture, to say nothing of explicit hatred, otherwise legitimate points of film criticism or fan opinion pretty much vanish to zero in terms of importance in the public conversation. IMO people who feel “lumped” should direct their anger at the racists and sexists screwing up the conversation for everybody, not Disney or pop-culture journalists for trying to fight back. In terms of Disney’s posture, I think it’s quite proper for them to call out the crappiness, both from the explicit haters and from the ones on the fence, those half-articulating alt-righty, anti-“pc” views and at the same time halfway denying them. Instead of thinking they should avoid “controversy” or “divisiveness” by clearly calling racists and sexists bad people, I would rather they put a placard in front of every one of their films saying, in their choice of language, “those who believe in racism or sexism are, so long as they maintain these views, personally inferior individuals whom we regard as morally unworthy of viewing our films. Out of respect for our legitimate fans, our communities, and ourselves, we request without respect that these individuals remove themselves from this viewing, and go home to rethink their lives.”
From what I've seen, which admittedly isn't a lot since I avoid most of the media these days because it is so focused on ad hominem, poorly formed thoughts, and misleading claims... from what I've seen, those who are unjustly and incorrectly labeled things like "alt-right", are correct to eschew the term, point out that they are not that, yet in so doing, it appears you (or those you're describing) want to force them right back into the category by claiming they're "anti-anti-racists" (which logically reduces to "racists"). That doesn't seem like the behavior of someone interested in honest and open discourse. They are "anti-PC" because political correctness was the gateway into identity politics and is what spawned so much of the focus on the individual rather than the argument that we suffer from as a society today. Last edited by edgecrusher; 08-12-2018 at 11:17 AM.. |
08-12-2018, 11:45 AM | #28 |
Cobra Amphibian Trainer
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ventura
Posts: 2,580
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Aggressive opinions, or 'hot takes', get noticed.
When people get worked up in response it reinforces the behavior and leads to even more aggressive opinions. I think too many people forgot the best way to deal with an annoying younger brother. Just don't engage. (Social media in general - not anyone here!)
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08-12-2018, 12:07 PM | #29 |
retro O-rings, baby!
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 829
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Edgecrusher, I don’t see where the irony/contradiction lies. The basis of any claim of freedom or equality, at least insofar as it’s been conceptually clear rather than subject to ad hoc limitations, has always been that everyone should be free up to, but never beyond, the point where their freedom impinges on that of others.
I see three types of claims for freedom- the claim that a truly free person can do anything they want to anyone, which we can call dominator’s freedom, the claim that a truly free person has no responsibilities to anyone, and therefore must be free to neglect anyone else’s problems according to their whim, with no judgment or social sanction, which we can call abdicator’s freedom, and then the idea that freedom is a set of principles like Locke’s natural rights or Mill’s consequentialism or Kant’s categorical imperative— principles which simultaneously create a sphere of rights to autonomy and personal choice, yet also create binding obligations to protect the same for all others, which we can call a moral concept of freedom. As I’m sure you’ll realize, I am proposing the third of these types only. If your concept of freedom is like the first two, or if you think there’s a value-neutral fourth option I’ve missed, then we have a philosophical disagreement about basic values. If not, maybe I’ve misunderstood your point about irony. As for the alt-right, I wholly agree that there’s little to distinguish them from the racist (and other things) groups of the recent and not-so-recent past. The term is actually in current use by these people themselves — the news organization Breitbart once called itself something like the voice of the alt-right— so I see no reason why it should be called an inappropriate term. When anyone calls some alt-right, they are definitely accusing them of hatred or discrimination...I don’t think there’s anyone on the planet who questions that. It’s not a deception or an evasion, it’s a standard, recognized, essentially equivalent term in the current context. Again, the people who self-describe this way wear it as a badge of honor... In terms of the question of identity politics, if your intent is to suggest that people should not view their heritage as an important part of who they are, or that others shouldn’t care, or that films shouldn’t have a wide variety of people doing a wide variety of things, then I think that view speaks for itself. If you mean something else, by all means clarify. As for the question about argumentation vs emotion, I guess I’d have to better understand your views on ethics and metaethics to really reply. But if you’re referring to the idea of the extraordinary human dignity shown by Gandhi or King and their movements, and dismissing the idea that empathy and the realization that others have multifaceted, complex interior lives too offer valuable sources of moral insight, then again we’ll have to disagree. “If you prick me, do I not bleed?” is a profound moral statement, though emotive and artistic, and not a cheap trick to short circuit someone else’s “wholly logical” ability to question another’s humanity. Last edited by books; 08-12-2018 at 02:15 PM.. |
08-12-2018, 12:32 PM | #30 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 945
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“A lot” is a meaningless descriptor. If you are trying to take an extreme minority of commenters and paint a broad stroke about a significant portion of the fandom, you have to be specific. If 100 commenters out of millions of fans make racist comments it doesn’t reflect anything about the fandom; they are exceptions, not rules.
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