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07-26-2018, 03:27 AM | #1 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 119
|
I've been watching Ken Burns' documentary about the Vietnam War lately, and it's in several parts. Now I can't decide if my uptick in interest lately in all things military has been due to my revived interest in G.I. Joe, or the other way around, but I've been watching. My point in all this is I arrived at a very interesting question concerning G.I. Joe, and I'm sure any answers I cull from the ensuing discussion can be debated indefinitely, and I'm curious to see what our younger fandom members might say, but my question in this: Would A Real American Hero as a toy line have been the success it was had it been introduced in any other generation or at a different time? Was it actually a product of it time, socially and politically speaking?
I know that in my personal experience, my interest stemmed directly from my interest in the Vietnam War. Having been born in 1973, I grew up in an era when the war was ending, and society seemed to want to forget it ever happened, but there was this underlying sense of reverence and patriotism for those that served...at least that's how I always felt. Images and sentiments concerning World War II were much more black-and-white and heroic, as it were. So I guess I feel as if there was this deep awareness of the military and how it was supposed to play a role in fighting evil...at least that's the impact it had on me. So I remember growing-up with this sense of pride and patriotism about the military and its different branches. And so of course, having played with those little static plastic green army men you could buy for a buck or so at the grocery store, when G.I. Joe debuted in all its articulated and painted-detail glory...my little mind was blown, and I could finally be more creatively immersed into this world of battle and glory... I even remember, with those little green army men, there were different soldiers...there was a sergeant or commander of some kind in an attack or "Follow me, men!!" pose with his pistol pointing the way. Then there was a soldier pointing his rifle to shoot, another one posed like he was crawling under barbed-wire or for cover. Then there was a soldier figure manning a mortar, and another one crouching and communicating with his radio and field backpack. And if you were real lucky, you might have a tank for back-up. Can you imagine, or do you simply remember, playing with these little immovable, monochrome army figurines, and then suddenly you see these highly-articulated, painted, and accessorized action figures? It was like watching a black-and-white analog tv all your life, then somebody showed you a modern, high-def television playing a 4K Bluray... So, do you think G.I. Joe as a toy line could have made the impact it did had it been released at any other time in history? I think the original twelve-inch line was popular because kids in the early Sixties were still romanticizing World War II heroes, and that was a natural expression of heroism and adventure. A Real American Hero re-defined what action figures were or could be, and it was packaged in a military theme, arguably during a time of peace and not conflict...and I think my generation had romanticized the Vietnam War much like the previous generation had World War II. Also, patriotism was at an all-time high in the early Eighties, so that's why I propose the notion that A Real American Hero was strictly a product of its time and perhaps could not have been as viable a property had it been paired with any other social or political climate. I'm sure alot of this stuff has been addressed in the Netflix series "The Toys That Made Us", but I was curious as to what my collecting brethren thought, if you guys had experienced the same kind of thing or mode of thinking growing-up as I had...was it indeed a shared experience, as I imagine it actually was? I'm equally curious as to what our younger members think as well...did more modern notions of wartime in the Middle East or the global War on Terrorism produce a similar emergence and feeling of patriotism in you guys as was the case with us older generations and our respective conflicts? I just know what makes G.I. Joe what it is for me personally, and I just wonder if my notions or impressions are prevalent and common or unique and individualized. Your thoughts, gentlemen...
__________________
Fear not the weapon, but the man who wields it. Last edited by Commando73; 07-26-2018 at 03:35 AM.. |
07-26-2018, 07:39 AM | #2 |
Cobra Interrogator
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Undisclosed Military Installation in Kentucky
Posts: 1,466
|
TTMU very explicitly linked ARAH with Reagan’s America, in that the post-Vietnam generation was experiencing a revival in pro-military and pro-American sentiment. At the same time, ‘Star Wars’ had just rewritten the rules for pop culture and toys. Deregulation of advertising and kids TV opened up a whole new arena for marketing and TV show tie-ins. ARAH took advantage of all of these trends. Additionally, the 80’s were kind of a renaissance period for comic books.
That said, there are plenty of other points where it could have succeeded. Post-Desert Storm and Post-9/11 saw similar patriotic and military upswings. Even today, when people’s attitudes have allegedly soured on war and mindless jingoism, we still see military media like ‘Call of Duty’ and ‘Transformers’ turning into multibillion dollar franchises. So when people say that consumers aren’t interested in military subject matter, I call bullshit. ARAH could have succeeded at other times,, but probably not to the same extent. There would be more competition for starters. Also, they would need to look at changes in media consumption. The 90’s saw comic books crash and become almost irrelevant, so some of the 80’s strategies that were innovative at the time (eg cartoon advertisements for comic books) would not be effective in the 90’s or 00’s. And Hasbro still hasn’t figured out how to tap modern media (cough video games and Netflix cough) in an attractive and innovative way. Last edited by solosam; 07-26-2018 at 07:44 AM.. |
07-26-2018, 09:37 AM | #3 |
retro O-rings, baby!
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 829
|
I would say that if the 80s Joes had never previously existed, but a show had been done in the current decade with the same elements, it could easily have worked. And with a successful show, I don’t see why they couldn’t have had similar success with figures too.
Like solosam, I also think it’s easy to overstate the effects of the political climate, with the exception of the late 60s and 70s. That time saw about half the population questioning the value of the armed forces in ways unlike pretty much all the rest of the country’s history, except maybe after WWI and before WWII. But at pretty much any other time, I think the culture would have been receptive if the medium was right and the quality was there. I do think it’s fair to say the 80s were an especially hospitable time for Joe, but I wouldn’t draw any very strong conclusions from that. |
07-26-2018, 09:56 AM | #4 |
Browncoat
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ohio. For now.
Posts: 4,263
|
First off - Ken Burn's Vietnam Documentary is superb. Man, you think our current political and social climate is crazy... Millenials vs Trumpers is nothing compared to what was going on in the late 60's / early 70's.
Second - YES, absolutely RAH was a product of its time. Not just socially and politically - but 'toys' in general. I don't think we will ever see anything close to what it was back in 83-85. |
07-26-2018, 03:35 PM | #5 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 119
|
Quote:
First off - Ken Burn's Vietnam Documentary is superb. Man, you think our current political and social climate is crazy... Millenials vs Trumpers is nothing compared to what was going on in the late 60's / early 70's.
Second - YES, absolutely RAH was a product of its time. Not just socially and politically - but 'toys' in general. I don't think we will ever see anything close to what it was back in 83-85. I think perhaps a modern line designed around COD: Modern Warfare would be a success, perhaps not as intricately designed for play like ARAH was, although, I have seen kids at school that love the Halo and COD Megablox stuff...that's probably as close a modern version of ARAH as we'll see, I guess. But I like the answers I'm getting, guys, intersting stuff...
__________________
Fear not the weapon, but the man who wields it. |
07-26-2018, 08:09 PM | #6 |
Hiss Tank Mechanic
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 63
|
The timing was perfect. We were so lucky. If you watch The Toys That Made Us Documentary, particularly that sad portion near the end, when you realize there’s no one from the Hassenfeld Family left calling the shots, and how unceremoniously K. Bozigian’s GI Joe Creative Team was dissected until no one was left in the early 90’s, you understand why the 90’s Joe offerings went downhill and why we’ll never see a GI Joe themed first or third person shooter video game. It has less to do with moral backlash from anti-war parents and much more to do with no one currently at Hasbro front office caring about GI Joe. They just don’t. It meant everything to the Hassenfeld Family, it means nothing to those there now. They don’t see GI Joe as something anyone under the age of 35 cares about.
We are also very lucky that the toys, especially the vehicles were made so well that the advent of E-Bay has allowed us to reacquire them in decent condition to breath new life into the hobby. The 25th Anniversary line went into production right before the final Hassenfeld Brother stepped down as a CEO. Anyone who hasn’t watched that documentary owes it to themselves to watch it now. A recent study indicated that kids now days consider being told to play with action figures consider it a punishment and would rather have video games. It’s sad, but no, I don’t think ARAH would have thrived in a different era as a military themed toy. But you know what, I would love to be proven wrong. It would take some serious marketing, with great video games, and great television, and movies way better than what we’ve endured, but it could happen.
__________________
"A soldier's job is to do the impossible and then be forgotten," - Hawk (From G.I. Joe #1, 1982) |
07-26-2018, 09:12 PM | #7 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Brooklyn NY!
Posts: 5,239
|
Quote:
I've been watching Ken Burns' documentary about the Vietnam War lately, and it's in several parts. Now I can't decide if my uptick in interest lately in all things military has been due to my revived interest in G.I. Joe, or the other way around, but I've been watching. My point in all this is I arrived at a very interesting question concerning G.I. Joe, and I'm sure any answers I cull from the ensuing discussion can be debated indefinitely, and I'm curious to see what our younger fandom members might say, but my question in this: Would A Real American Hero as a toy line have been the success it was had it been introduced in any other generation or at a different time? Was it actually a product of it time, socially and politically speaking?
I know that in my personal experience, my interest stemmed directly from my interest in the Vietnam War. Having been born in 1973, I grew up in an era when the war was ending, and society seemed to want to forget it ever happened, but there was this underlying sense of reverence and patriotism for those that served...at least that's how I always felt. Images and sentiments concerning World War II were much more black-and-white and heroic, as it were. So I guess I feel as if there was this deep awareness of the military and how it was supposed to play a role in fighting evil...at least that's the impact it had on me. So I remember growing-up with this sense of pride and patriotism about the military and its different branches. And so of course, having played with those little static plastic green army men you could buy for a buck or so at the grocery store, when G.I. Joe debuted in all its articulated and painted-detail glory...my little mind was blown, and I could finally be more creatively immersed into this world of battle and glory... I even remember, with those little green army men, there were different soldiers...there was a sergeant or commander of some kind in an attack or "Follow me, men!!" pose with his pistol pointing the way. Then there was a soldier pointing his rifle to shoot, another one posed like he was crawling under barbed-wire or for cover. Then there was a soldier figure manning a mortar, and another one crouching and communicating with his radio and field backpack. And if you were real lucky, you might have a tank for back-up. Can you imagine, or do you simply remember, playing with these little immovable, monochrome army figurines, and then suddenly you see these highly-articulated, painted, and accessorized action figures? It was like watching a black-and-white analog tv all your life, then somebody showed you a modern, high-def television playing a 4K Bluray... So, do you think G.I. Joe as a toy line could have made the impact it did had it been released at any other time in history? I think the original twelve-inch line was popular because kids in the early Sixties were still romanticizing World War II heroes, and that was a natural expression of heroism and adventure. A Real American Hero re-defined what action figures were or could be, and it was packaged in a military theme, arguably during a time of peace and not conflict...and I think my generation had romanticized the Vietnam War much like the previous generation had World War II. Also, patriotism was at an all-time high in the early Eighties, so that's why I propose the notion that A Real American Hero was strictly a product of its time and perhaps could not have been as viable a property had it been paired with any other social or political climate. I'm sure alot of this stuff has been addressed in the Netflix series "The Toys That Made Us", but I was curious as to what my collecting brethren thought, if you guys had experienced the same kind of thing or mode of thinking growing-up as I had...was it indeed a shared experience, as I imagine it actually was? I'm equally curious as to what our younger members think as well...did more modern notions of wartime in the Middle East or the global War on Terrorism produce a similar emergence and feeling of patriotism in you guys as was the case with us older generations and our respective conflicts? I just know what makes G.I. Joe what it is for me personally, and I just wonder if my notions or impressions are prevalent and common or unique and individualized. Your thoughts, gentlemen... We can argue about the good and bad that came from the 80s but it was a time when Americams were looking to feel good about themselves again. So much bad came from the 70s (except music) and many were eager to turn the page. GIJoe represented a new positive feel for our military, our culture, and or country. And I was happy to endorse it. Quote:
The timing was perfect. We were so lucky. If you watch The Toys That Made Us Documentary, particularly that sad portion near the end, when you realize there’s no one from the Hassenfeld Family left calling the shots, and how unceremoniously K. Bozigian’s GI Joe Creative Team was dissected until no one was left in the early 90’s, you understand why the 90’s Joe offerings went downhill and why we’ll never see a GI Joe themed first or third person shooter video game. It has less to do with moral backlash from anti-war parents and much more to do with no one currently at Hasbro front office caring about GI Joe. They just don’t. It meant everything to the Hassenfeld Family, it means nothing to those there now. They don’t see GI Joe as something anyone under the age of 35 cares about.
We are also very lucky that the toys, especially the vehicles were made so well that the advent of E-Bay has allowed us to reacquire them in decent condition to breath new life into the hobby. The 25th Anniversary line went into production right before the final Hassenfeld Brother stepped down as a CEO. Anyone who hasn’t watched that documentary owes it to themselves to watch it now. A recent study indicated that kids now days consider being told to play with action figures consider it a punishment and would rather have video games. It’s sad, but no, I don’t think ARAH would have thrived in a different era as a military themed toy. But you know what, I would love to be proven wrong. It would take some serious marketing, with great video games, and great television, and movies way better than what we’ve endured, but it could happen. My nephews love toys but as they get older they are gravitating away from them towards video games a lot earlier than I did. To be fair they might not be into the toys if not for me buying them for them and getting them into the Sunbow cartoons.
__________________
Visit my vintage Joe restoration page! https://www.flickr.com/photos/131988164@N07/albums Cross Country's super smooth feedback thread. http://www.hisstank.com/forum/buy-se...ml#post4456308 Currently available Hasbro items. PM me for your prices (DO NOT be discouraged by the listing prices) https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dkr...nirtoys&_oac=1 Last edited by Cross Country; 07-26-2018 at 09:29 PM.. |
07-27-2018, 02:53 PM | #8 |
Star Brigade Commander
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Up North
Posts: 4,275
|
I don't think there were any revolutionary toys when I was growing up. Well, there was pokemon but they were trading cards. I wish I could jump in a time machine and see GI Joe in all its glory, both 12 inch and ARAH!
__________________
LNC |
07-27-2018, 03:36 PM | #9 |
Cobra Interrogator
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Undisclosed Military Installation in Kentucky
Posts: 1,466
|
I never realized the extent to which GI Joe was personality-driven until I saw TTMU. And that seems to be the “X” factor that we - as consumers - often see glimpses of but rarely understand. GI Joe was successful because the people who made it WANTED it to be successful, and it faded when those same people got replaced by Kenner employees with different ideas and far less passion. And the sad thing is that they don’t seem to be able to “figure it out.” Even today, we see examples of companies that put out second-rate products (eg Jurassic Park) because of backstabbing, infighting, and other corporate drama.
I don’t know why it is so hard to assemble motivated teams who WANT to make quality products. It’s not even like it’s some big goddamned secret. Check out “The Culture Code” by Daniel Coyle and it’s clear that the keys to making high-performing creative groups is already well understood. GI Joe will be successful when Hasbro WANTS it to be successful, and when they put in the time and effort to create first-rate products. I know I’ve said this before, but the comparison to CoD and Halo are apt. Over and over we see top tier original IPs that succeed first as video games and then proliferate into toys, books, and all kinds of other merch. There’s no reason whatsoever for why G.I. Joe couldn’t have that same success, except for Hasbro’s indifference. |
07-27-2018, 05:33 PM | #10 |
E-7/SFC
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Richland , Texas
Posts: 3,345
|
Quote:
First off - Ken Burn's Vietnam Documentary is superb. Man, you think our current political and social climate is crazy... Millenials vs Trumpers is nothing compared to what was going on in the late 60's / early 70's.
Second - YES, absolutely RAH was a product of its time. Not just socially and politically - but 'toys' in general. I don't think we will ever see anything close to what it was back in 83-85. |
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