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06-10-2009, 05:38 PM | #1 |
Cobra Soldier
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 44
|
Greetings all collectors and G.I. Joe fanatics! I know this has been spoken about before in various forms, but I wanted to submit this to you all, my peers and fellow collectors. I am an avid cobra army builder and I recently purchased 75 1982-1983 "Cobra The Enemy" soldiers from a seller on an auction site (not eBay) for $400.00. At the time of package receipt I was still very busy with wrapping up school for the semester so I didn't have a lot of time to tinker with my new toys. They looked great at first glance, just as they were described to be, so I put them on the shelf until the end of the semester, which was almost 50 days after the purchase...
My thoughts were to keep the majority and sell some of the remainder so that I might have a little extra money to continue to feed the monkey that is my hobby. ;) However, Once I posted the pictures with my auctions I started getting e-mails from other collectors asking me if they were genuine. After doing a little research I discovered a phenomenon that has been recently cropping up in the last few years that horrified me. "Red Flag Rivets" or "Reversed Rivets" they were called. I immediately became concerned that I had been defrauded and pulled the auction. I have since spent many hours attempting to find answers through any means possible and ended up contacting Hasbro. A few creative e-mails and phone calls later I spoke with a man who claimed to have worked for Hasbro during the early 1980's. I immediately asked him specifically about these reversed style unpainted rivets and the red o-rings inside of these 82-83 figures. He told me that many of the early 80's figures had red o-rings and this was perfectly normal. He also said there were figures that had these "reverse style rivets." I have seen them myself, but still I remained skeptical. But, the big unprompted response he gave me was "Son, is there a stamp on the bottom of the figures rear that says the year, HASBRO, and reads Made in Hong Kong?" Low and behold, of course there was... every one of them had this mark on their rears: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3Stampcopy.jpg After I got off the phone I started checking some of my older figures... The first one I went for was of the same vintage, an 82-83 "Cobra Officer." After opening him up what did I find? A red o-ring, same style internal guts and all. His rivets were normal and not reversed, but I plunged on checking several others with mixed results of black and red o-rings. (Some of these red ringed Joes I cross checked with are from my childhood so I know they're not fakes) So the question I pose is what do you think? Anyone else out there have Joe's with reversed rivets or red o-rings? Take a closer look at some of these pictures below and let me know what your opinions are. I welcome all comments and questions as I'd like to get other collector's opinions on these figures. Thank you all for reading! Yo-Joe! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...aper_47/G4.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...aper_47/E2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...aper_47/B2.jpg Last edited by CobraZartan47; 06-10-2009 at 05:42 PM.. |
06-10-2009, 05:50 PM | #2 |
Serpentor Imposter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 3,910
|
honestly, your photos are way too blurry to tell anything from them.
I have some other opinions on your post, but I'll save them until someone that knows a lot more than I do posts about it. |
06-10-2009, 06:03 PM | #3 |
Cobra Soldier
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 44
|
Quote:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...aper_47/E1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2..._47/Hgroup.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2..._47/Bgroup.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2..._47/Cgroup.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...aper_47/D1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2..._47/Dgroup.jpg |
06-11-2009, 11:15 AM | #4 |
Cobra Soldier
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 44
|
Take a look at these scans of the internal guts of one of these and its close up details. Thoughts?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../cobraguts.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...cobraguts2.jpg |
06-11-2009, 11:42 AM | #5 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 13,759
|
I've never heard about nor seen this red o-ring (Doesn't mean it doesn't exsist, I've just never seen it)
As for the rivets, looking at your pictures, it looks like the solid side of them are flat instead of curved. This is usually a big red flag of either bootlegs or perhaps repaired figures. Can you take a close up picture or scan of the cobra symbol on the chest? Most of the bootlegs have a slightly different symbol |
06-11-2009, 11:45 AM | #6 |
Telecommunications
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 3,340
|
This is the first time that I'm hearing anything about Hasbro using red o-rings or reversed rivets. You would think that this would be documented by Yo Joe or some other site.
In any case for some reason I do not believe that the Habro representative you spoke to knew what the hell they were talking about. It's like when you ask any employee about their products at a store, the customer usually knows more. I don't want to burst your bubble but I still believe that you have unknowingly purchased bootlegs. Now if this Hasbro rep was correct in saying..."that many of the early 80's figures had red o-rings and this was perfectly normal, and that there were figures that had these "reverse style rivets." then wouldn't you think that this would have only occurred with the straight arm figures made in 1982 before the swivel arms came out in 1983 and on? Where did these figures happen to come from? If you got them from a seller in China or Japan they might indeed be bootlegs unless that Hasbro rep was correct. Maybe these red o-ring, revesred rivet figures never made it to North America back then and were only sold in Asia. These figures could have also been part of a bunch of figures that were assembled incorrectly, so they were never carded and sold. I would believe that if they didn't have red o-rings as well. Another red flag that makes me think that these are bootlegs is the fact that the rivet used in the elbow joints has a flat back to it. Every Joe figure that I've ever seen which has been released in North America uses a rivet in the elbow joint which has a rounded curved surface to it. The rivets in your figures look flat like nail heads. The other thing is that the rivets are not painted. This is also unusual. I believe that the rivets on the 1983 Cobra figure were colored during a diecast process before the rivets were installed. If you check out all of the ARAH figures some have shiney rivets which I believe were dyed and others have their rivets painted over. In the long run I hope that you do get to the bottom of this and find someone else that can confirm that they had figures from their childhood that had red o-rings and reversed rivets and that they still have these figures today so that they can check them for you. I wouldn't want to see anyone on the receiving end of bootlegs after they invested so much money. Good luck to you and welcome to the Tank.
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CALL OF DUTY: MODERN WARFARE 3 & BLACK OPS II = HISS CLAN Scoop's PS3 PSN ID: Nightwing1975 Scoop's Feedback Thread |
06-11-2009, 01:24 PM | #7 |
Night Force General
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: ---------
Posts: 284
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id say bootlegs who sells 75 mint troopers at $5 each totaling $400. that should be the red flag. a 82-83 trooper sells for $15 or so. and even if you where selling a large # of troop builders you would not sell them at a low price of $5 each.
just enjoy them. id gladly pay $400 for 75 troopers that are all mint and look like the just came off the card. cheers and good luck on your quest |
06-11-2009, 04:48 PM | #8 |
Telecommunications
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 3,340
|
Quote:
He told me that many of the early 80's figures had red o-rings and this was perfectly normal. He also said there were figures that had these "reverse style rivets." I have seen them myself, but still I remained skeptical. But, the big unprompted response he gave me was "Son, is there a stamp on the bottom of the figures rear that says the year, HASBRO, and reads Made in Hong Kong?" Low and behold, of course there was... every one of them had this mark on their rears: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3Stampcopy.jpg
The copyright symbol that you posted is off to the side of that button. This might be another "red flag" for bootlegs.
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CALL OF DUTY: MODERN WARFARE 3 & BLACK OPS II = HISS CLAN Scoop's PS3 PSN ID: Nightwing1975 Scoop's Feedback Thread |
06-11-2009, 05:14 PM | #9 |
Cobra Soldier
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 44
|
First off, I just wanted to say thank you for all of your input and help in furthering my understanding of this situation. It's wonderful to run into a community of helpful and friendly collectors like you all, thank you for making me feel welcome! ;) I was about 95% sure these were bootlegs and now I'm almost positive... It's really unfortunate that people stoop to these levels to defraud others in such a pathetic way.
I'd have to agree with you Scoop, the guy didn't know what the hell he was talking about. The red o-rings I can buy, the reverse assembly.. okay, but the flat rivets that are unpainted? This is the most troubling part that screams bootleg... Also, NightForceHorde you are right, IF these are fakes, (almost for certain) they are the best damn fakes I've EVER seen! everything about them is 100% spot on except for the rivets. I know Shogi, you mentioned something about the cobra symbols? I've seen those bootleg stormshadows floating around that have the thicker emblem, but these are perfect... TOO PERFECT. (see this picture for a closeup I just figured out how to post pictures in thread =D)... The only other flaw is their joints on some of their arms are a little loose, but otherwise out of 75 cobra troopers I only received one that had a small rub on the symbol and one other that had a broken rifle. As for the red o-rings, I had an '83 Breaker figure that has a red o-ring. Also, I've heard of other collector's specifically a thread on a yojoe forum where a guy was talking about his 80s Destro having reversed rivets, BUT they were painted. So, all in all I guess I can still call it a win, to the untrained eye they are no different than the real ones. It is what it is I guess... Anyway, ONE final thing... the seller whom I purchased these from? His name is "Eudilia M Saavedra" and he lives in Miami, FL. He sells on eBay under the name "Marucobra," I've also seen his e-mail address pop up various times under different things so beware of this address ([email protected]). He has ignored all contacts, prompts, and saber rattling that I've attempted and I think I just have to come to terms that this guy is a real scumbag and my money is just gone. Check this thread out on the yojoe forum where other collectors are actually talking about being defrauded by the SAME guy. (How I wish I'd seen this first!) Insane amount of viper pilots and cobra soldiers - Page 4 - YoJoe.com Forums Factory error 1983 Cobra soldier? - YoJoe.com Forums Paypal offers NO buyer protection from any auction site but eBay, i found this out the hard way! BEWARE collectors, let my example stand firm on the shelves of all joes. These things are everywhere now. Just be more cautious than I was, I didn't realize these existed at the time, and now I know, and knowing is half the battle! Yo-Joe! |
06-11-2009, 05:22 PM | #10 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,379
|
Hey man, if you want to sell five of these, let me know. I bought one of these and yeah, you can tell these are fakes, but I still wouldn't mind a little squad of them.
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