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07-16-2016, 08:02 AM | #21 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Quote:
Survey Everyone who completes the following survey will earn two additional bonus nominations for the “Greatest G.I. Joe Character of all Time” poll. The entire survey must be completed to receive the bonus nominations. To complete the survey, simply quote this post and write one of the five responses listed below beside each of the nine survey statements. For example, if you agree that a certain character type should be allowed in the poll, write “Eligible.” If you strongly agree, write “Definitely Eligible.” If you disagree, write “Ineligible,” and if you strongly disagree, write “Definitely Ineligible.” If you are uncertain or don’t care one way or the other about a character type, write “Indifferent.” Choose one of these responses for each statement below: Definitely Eligible Eligible Indifferent Ineligible Definitely Ineligible 1. Characters that are not human or humanoid and have NO human shape or likeness, EXCLUDING plants and animals. Examples: synthoids, blobs, and giant alien eyeballs. Response: ineligible 2. Characters that have ONLY appeared in a G.I. Joe crossover series, such as “Transformers vs G.I. Joe” or “Street Fighter x G.I. Joe,” regardless of origination. Examples: Marissa Faireborn, Stealth BAT, Bludgeon, Optimus Prime, Megatron, Chun Li, Blanka, Guile, and many more. Response: eligible 3. Characters that appeared but did NOT originate in G.I. Joe media, EXCLUDING those in a crossover series (see examples above) or previous poll winners (e.g. Sgt. Slaughter and Roddy Piper). Examples: Matt Trakker and Bullet Man. Response: eligible 4. Characters that were published but later retracted with a statement of correction. Examples: Rocky Balboa. Response: ineligible 5. Characters that were unproduced or cancelled prototypes. Examples: Kaos Crew, Arkanoid (Manimal), Spasma (Manimal), and many more. Response: eligible 6. Characters that were unpublished sketches, concepts, or narratives. Examples: Dave Dorman's Dreadnok with a mohawk and Kurt Groen's pirate oil baron. (https://arealamericanbook.wordpress.com/tag/unproduced/) Response: ineligible 7. Characters of unlicensed media, including custom toys and fan fiction but excluding licensed material in Kindle Worlds. Examples include Chef and Noga87’s “franken Joes.” Response: ineligible 8. Characters from parallel or alternative universes that can interact with their non-alternative counterparts, EXCLUDING characters, such as Tamox from "Shattered Glass," who are merely alternative versions and can not interact with the original versions of themselves. Examples: the Baroness from “Worlds Without End” episodes. Response: ineligible 9. Characters of independent continuities who have unique code names but share the same GIVEN NAME as original or preceding characters. Examples: ROC Air Raid (Franklin Talltree), ROC Bench Press (Craig McConnel), and ROC Speed Metal (Sherman Guderian). Response: There you go |
07-16-2016, 09:49 AM | #22 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Mansfield, Texas
Posts: 3,863
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Quote:
survey everyone who completes the following survey will earn two additional bonus nominations for the “greatest g.i. Joe character of all time” poll. The entire survey must be completed to receive the bonus nominations. To complete the survey, simply quote this post and write one of the five responses listed below beside each of the nine survey statements. For example, if you agree that a certain character type should be allowed in the poll, write “eligible.” if you strongly agree, write “definitely eligible.” if you disagree, write “ineligible,” and if you strongly disagree, write “definitely ineligible.” if you are uncertain or don’t care one way or the other about a character type, write “indifferent.” choose one of these responses for each statement below: Definitely eligible eligible indifferent ineligible definitely ineligible 1. Characters that are not human or humanoid and have no human shape or likeness, excluding plants and animals. Examples: Synthoids, blobs, and giant alien eyeballs. Response: Definitely ineligible 2. Characters that have only appeared in a g.i. Joe crossover series, such as “transformers vs g.i. Joe” or “street fighter x g.i. Joe,” regardless of origination. Examples: Marissa faireborn, stealth bat, bludgeon, optimus prime, megatron, chun li, blanka, guile, and many more. Response: Eligible 3. Characters that appeared but did not originate in g.i. Joe media, excluding those in a crossover series (see examples above) or previous poll winners (e.g. Sgt. Slaughter and roddy piper). Examples: Matt trakker and bullet man. Response: Eligible 4. Characters that were published but later retracted with a statement of correction. Examples: Rocky balboa. Response: Ineligible 5. Characters that were unproduced or cancelled prototypes. Examples: Kaos crew, arkanoid (manimal), spasma (manimal), and many more. Response: Ineligible 6. Characters that were unpublished sketches, concepts, or narratives. Examples: Dave dorman's dreadnok with a mohawk and kurt groen's pirate oil baron. (https://arealamericanbook.wordpress.com/tag/unproduced/) response: Ineligible 7. Characters of unlicensed media, including custom toys and fan fiction but excluding licensed material in kindle worlds. Examples include chef and noga87’s “franken joes.” response: Ineligible 8. Characters from parallel or alternative universes that can interact with their non-alternative counterparts, excluding characters, such as tamox from "shattered glass," who are merely alternative versions and can not interact with the original versions of themselves. Examples: The baroness from “worlds without end” episodes. response: Ineligible 9. Characters of independent continuities who have unique code names but share the same given name as original or preceding characters. Examples: Roc air raid (franklin talltree), roc bench press (craig mcconnel), and roc speed metal (sherman guderian). Response: |
07-16-2016, 10:22 AM | #23 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 10,816
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Question 2 doesn't make sense to me. The examples offered are inconsistent with the premise. Optimus Prime has not ONLY appeared in G.I. Joe vs. Transformers. He appeared in Transformers independently. Stealth B.A.T. is a character who did ONLY appear in a crossover series. This should be two separate questions at least. Characters who ONLY appear in a crossover series have no clear home in either a Joe or Transformers poll, so they are a very different animal than a character who originated in one of the properties crossing over. So that requires 2 separate questions.
Another problem with Question 2, Street Fighter was never a "crossover" story. It was just a pre-existing brand that slapped the G.I. Joe brand name on it. There was a 12" G.I. Joe Indiana Jones figure that did the same thing. So, again, this should be a totally separate question related to use of the G.I. Joe brand name on otherwise unrelated characters. Arguably, Marissa is a different animal entirely, because her very existence is predicated on the existence of G.I. Joe. I would argue every episode she is in is technically a crossover, and she is a character who originated in a crossover story, not in a solo Transformers story. This interpretation becomes even more clear when you look at Old Snake and how his episode is clearly a crossover with G.I. Joe. So given that categorization, we wouldn't need another question for her, she would be covered under the current wording of Question 2. We certainly need to allow for the fact that one STORY in a series can be a crossover, even if the whole series isn't. We saw that clearly happen in the later Marvel Joe comic with a few issues of a crossover story that the club's upcoming set is based on. I answered based on the wording of Question 2, but not based on the erroneous examples provided that don't fit the premise. Also, you have Chef under the wrong question. He was an unproduced concept from Hasbro, I think for a mail-in figure, so at least a 6. Not sure if he got to a 5. He also opens the question as to whether the "custom class" figures produced for the con are official (as people argue the Canadian figures are). We probably should have a separate question on that as well as on the Canadian con figures. 1. Characters that are not human or humanoid and have NO human shape or likeness, EXCLUDING plants and animals. Examples: synthoids, blobs, and giant alien eyeballs. Response: Definitely Ineligible 2. Characters that have ONLY appeared in a G.I. Joe crossover series, such as “Transformers vs G.I. Joe” or “Street Fighter x G.I. Joe,” regardless of origination. Examples: Marissa Faireborn, Stealth BAT, Bludgeon, Optimus Prime, Megatron, Chun Li, Blanka, Guile, and many more. Response: Definitely Eligible 3. Characters that appeared but did NOT originate in G.I. Joe media, EXCLUDING those in a crossover series (see examples above) or previous poll winners (e.g. Sgt. Slaughter and Roddy Piper). Examples: Matt Trakker and Bullet Man. Response: Definitely Eligible 4. Characters that were published but later retracted with a statement of correction. Examples: Rocky Balboa. Response: Definitely Eligible 5. Characters that were unproduced or cancelled prototypes. Examples: Kaos Crew, Arkanoid (Manimal), Spasma (Manimal), and many more. Response: Indifferent 6. Characters that were unpublished sketches, concepts, or narratives. Examples: Dave Dorman's Dreadnok with a mohawk and Kurt Groen's pirate oil baron. (https://arealamericanbook.wordpress.com/tag/unproduced/) Response: Ineligible 7. Characters of unlicensed media, including custom toys and fan fiction but excluding licensed material in Kindle Worlds. Examples include Chef and Noga87’s “franken Joes.” Response: Definitely Ineligible 8. Characters from parallel or alternative universes that can interact with their non-alternative counterparts, EXCLUDING characters, such as Tamox from "Shattered Glass," who are merely alternative versions and can not interact with the original versions of themselves. Examples: the Baroness from “Worlds Without End” episodes. Response: Definitely Eligible 9. Characters of independent continuities who have unique code names but share the same GIVEN NAME as original or preceding characters. Examples: ROC Air Raid (Franklin Talltree), ROC Bench Press (Craig McConnel), and ROC Speed Metal (Sherman Guderian). Response: Definitely Ineligible Last edited by JediJones; 07-16-2016 at 10:33 AM.. |
07-16-2016, 10:43 AM | #24 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,069
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Some of the further breakdowns might be good. I didn't feel like all these categories were exactly on-point.
To me, Synthoids are as much a Sunbow Trooper as Fatal Fluffies. Bench-Press, I think should be eligible. His real name seems wrong, since we all know that's RnR, and there's never been a dispute that RnR needed to change his code name besides this instance. Bench Press comes with a chainsaw, not a machine gun and ammo straps. Finally, only about 20 characters have been inducted into the poll who don't have figures (a couple handfuls more have had first-ever figures revealed since the poll began!), and half of those have been inducted within the past 70 slots. This is strong evidence to me that a character with a figure (Marissa, Matt Trakker) should be automatically eligible. And also many unreleased prototypes (think the unreleased aliens or Bombardier, before he had an FSS figure). Last edited by Stalker; 07-16-2016 at 10:45 AM.. |
07-16-2016, 11:07 AM | #25 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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It looks like I will have to revise statement two because the language seems to confuse the criteria.
Maybe it's also not clear what I mean when I say crossover series. I define a crossover series as anything that shares two or more brand names. Given that definition, there are two examples of Street Fighter crossovers: 1. The comic (see below) 2. The toy line (see below) Last edited by Tanksmasher; 07-16-2016 at 11:21 AM.. |
07-16-2016, 11:20 AM | #26 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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Matt Trakker, on the other hand, is a "crossover" character that appears in a GI Joe only, non-crossover package. I'm aware that his card has a MASK sticker or logo on it, but the 25th Anniversary line was strictly a GI Joe series, which is why I didn't count it as a crossover series.
That's a distinction people were making so I tried to separate them under different categories. The Indiana Jones / GI Joe would fall under the crossover series with Street Fighter in my opinion. |
07-16-2016, 11:42 AM | #27 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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Quote:
Arguably, Marissa is a different animal entirely, because her very existence is predicated on the existence of G.I. Joe. I would argue every episode she is in is technically a crossover, and she is a character who originated in a crossover story, not in a solo Transformers story. This interpretation becomes even more clear when you look at Old Snake and how his episode is clearly a crossover with G.I. Joe. So given that categorization, we wouldn't need another question for her, she would be covered under the current wording of Question 2. We certainly need to allow for the fact that one STORY in a series can be a crossover, even if the whole series isn't. We saw that clearly happen in the later Marvel Joe comic with a few issues of a crossover story that the club's upcoming set is based on.
Quote:
Also, you have Chef under the wrong question. He was an unproduced concept from Hasbro, I think for a mail-in figure, so at least a 6. Not sure if he got to a 5. He also opens the question as to whether the "custom class" figures produced for the con are official (as people argue the Canadian figures are). We probably should have a separate question on that as well as on the Canadian con figures.
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07-16-2016, 11:48 AM | #28 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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Note the text in upper right corner. Also note that Hasbro Canada attended the conventions so they are well aware of what was printed on them. I can't imagine that the customizers would try to fraudently claim they had permission to make these for purchase by attendees.
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07-16-2016, 12:22 PM | #29 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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Quote:
Some of the further breakdowns might be good. I didn't feel like all these categories were exactly on-point.
To me, Synthoids are as much a Sunbow Trooper as Fatal Fluffies. Bench-Press, I think should be eligible. His real name seems wrong, since we all know that's RnR, and there's never been a dispute that RnR needed to change his code name besides this instance. Bench Press comes with a chainsaw, not a machine gun and ammo straps. Finally, only about 20 characters have been inducted into the poll who don't have figures (a couple handfuls more have had first-ever figures revealed since the poll began!), and half of those have been inducted within the past 70 slots. This is strong evidence to me that a character with a figure (Marissa, Matt Trakker) should be automatically eligible. And also many unreleased prototypes (think the unreleased aliens or Bombardier, before he had an FSS figure). My problem with the Benchpress argument is that characters in separate continuities vary drastically from their original counterparts. ROC Scarlett and Snake Eyes resemble the originals closely. Duke has slight changes: dark brown hair, he's an officer, etc. Rip Cord--his ethnicity completely changes. Breaker is similar but has a different ethnicity and given name. Benchpress has a chainsaw and different code name even. Rex Lewis has a different name than Kessler, which might be an alias anyway, and a different biographical history. The changes range from minor to major, and they are limitless when dealing with separate continuities. A creator of a new continuty can do virtually whatever he wants, making an original character appear almost unrecognizable. So how do we really know if it's a new character or just another version of a character? In my opinion, the file names and code names are the best evidence. Should we include ROC Breaker, whose given name Shaz differs from Kirby, like we included Lifeline (Scott) and Dusty (Paguette)? In my mind, no, because DDP made that Dusty and Lifeline separate characters, so they became part of the same continuity as the originals. ROC, however, doesn't do that. So for simplicity sake, if it were only up to me, I would write a rule saying that characters of independent continuities (like ROC) that share a significant link to an original, such as a code name or given name, are ineligible UNLESS there is reasonable evidence that indicates the character's given name or code name is merely coincidental. And here's a perfect example of an exception to that rule. Rampage (McDaniel) from DDP and VvV shares a code name with Ramage (Remington) from Extreme. Two separate continuities. Under my rule they'd appear ineligible but since the former is a Joe and the latter is a villain, I'd say that's a reasonable argument to make an exception. TF Wreckage (Moreno) is also a Joe and Wreckage (Alexander) from Extreme is a villain, so again I'd make an exception. Others here, however, might not. They might claim that a change in allegiance or whatever shouldn't make the connection coincidental. But we have to come up with some general guideline that narrows it down. Differences in hair color, rank, weapons, specialties, ethnicities, biographies, file names, birth places, and allegiances as criteria for determing whether two characters are the same is subjective and debatable but I'd like to come up with a simple easy to use rule that cuts down on the back and forth. Sure, as Lifeline said, people can have the same code name and even given name, but in reality we can't confirm that Benchpress isn't Rock n Roll in the same way that we can prove that Lifeline's neighbor isn't his mother. The rule would be just a general rule to handle hazy, gray issues. If someome can quote an official source, like a Hasbro creator or employee, stating Benchpress is an entirely different character and not inspired or based on Rock n Roll or that his given name is just coincidental, then that's a valid reason to make an exception under that rule, and I would allow it. I have heard of such claims in fact but am unable to confirm them. And the rules wouldn't be absolute, as in there's no wiggle room for interpretation of exceptional circumstances, but I'd like to nail down some of the bigger issues. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 07-16-2016 at 12:59 PM.. |
07-16-2016, 01:02 PM | #30 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 2,184
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1. Characters that are not human or humanoid and have NO human shape or likeness, EXCLUDING plants and animals. Examples: synthoids, blobs, and giant alien eyeballs.
Response:Ineligible 2. Characters that have ONLY appeared in a G.I. Joe crossover series, such as “Transformers vs G.I. Joe” or “Street Fighter x G.I. Joe,” regardless of origination. Examples: Marissa Faireborn, Stealth BAT, Bludgeon, Optimus Prime, Megatron, Chun Li, Blanka, Guile, and many more. Response:Ineligible 3. Characters that appeared but did NOT originate in G.I. Joe media, EXCLUDING those in a crossover series (see examples above) or previous poll winners (e.g. Sgt. Slaughter and Roddy Piper). Examples: Matt Trakker and Bullet Man. Response: Eligible 4. Characters that were published but later retracted with a statement of correction. Examples: Rocky Balboa. Response: Eligble 5. Characters that were unproduced or cancelled prototypes. Examples: Kaos Crew, Arkanoid (Manimal), Spasma (Manimal), and many more. Response: Eligible 6. Characters that were unpublished sketches, concepts, or narratives. Examples: Dave Dorman's Dreadnok with a mohawk and Kurt Groen's pirate oil baron. (https://arealamericanbook.wordpress.com/tag/unproduced/) Response: Ineligible 7. Characters of unlicensed media, including custom toys and fan fiction but excluding licensed material in Kindle Worlds. Examples include Chef and Noga87’s “franken Joes.” Response: Ineligible 8. Characters from parallel or alternative universes that can interact with their non-alternative counterparts, EXCLUDING characters, such as Tamox from "Shattered Glass," who are merely alternative versions and can not interact with the original versions of themselves. Examples: the Baroness from “Worlds Without End” episodes. Response: Ineligible 9. Characters of independent continuities who have unique code names but share the same GIVEN NAME as original or preceding characters. Examples: ROC Air Raid (Franklin Talltree), ROC Bench Press (Craig McConnel), and ROC Speed Metal (Sherman Guderian). Response: Ineligible |
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