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07-15-2016, 04:41 PM | #11 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Quote:
Biggles Jones wouldn't be much better than them but she is not tied to anything else. Megatron and Prime have appeared so much in various cross-over titles I don't know if you can not include them, but I will never vote for them. However...Transformers with JOE figures/vehicles: Ravage, Jetfire, Blaster, Hound, SHockwave, Bludgeon, Starscream, Marissa - I think should be in.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
07-15-2016, 04:43 PM | #12 |
FEED ME MORE!
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Korugar, Space Sector 1417
Posts: 8,930
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Quote:
Survey Everyone who completes the following survey will earn two additional bonus nominations for the “Greatest G.I. Joe Character of all Time” poll. The entire survey must be completed to receive the bonus nominations. To complete the survey, simply quote this post and write one of the five responses listed below beside each of the nine survey statements. For example, if you agree that a certain character type should be allowed in the poll, write “Eligible.” If you strongly agree, write “Definitely Eligible.” If you disagree, write “Ineligible,” and if you strongly disagree, write “Definitely Ineligible.” If you are uncertain or don’t care one way or the other about a character type, write “Indifferent.” Choose one of these responses for each statement below: Definitely Eligible Eligible Indifferent Ineligible Definitely Ineligible 1. Characters that are not human or humanoid and have NO human shape or likeness, EXCLUDING plants and animals. Examples: synthoids, blobs, and giant alien eyeballs. Response:Eligible 2. Characters that have ONLY appeared in a G.I. Joe crossover series, such as “Transformers vs G.I. Joe” or “Street Fighter x G.I. Joe,” regardless of origination. Examples: Marissa Faireborn, Stealth BAT, Bludgeon, Optimus Prime, Megatron, Chun Li, Blanka, Guile, and many more. Response: Eligible 3. Characters that appeared but did NOT originate in G.I. Joe media, EXCLUDING those in a crossover series (see examples above) or previous poll winners (e.g. Sgt. Slaughter and Roddy Piper). Examples: Matt Trakker and Bullet Man. Response: Eligible 4. Characters that were published but later retracted with a statement of correction. Examples: Rocky Balboa. Response:Ineligible 5. Characters that were unproduced or cancelled prototypes. Examples: Kaos Crew, Arkanoid (Manimal), Spasma (Manimal), and many more. Response:Eligible 6. Characters that were unpublished sketches, concepts, or narratives. Examples: Dave Dorman's Dreadnok with a mohawk and Kurt Groen's pirate oil baron. (https://arealamericanbook.wordpress.com/tag/unproduced/) Response:Eligible 7. Characters of unlicensed media, including custom toys and fan fiction but excluding licensed material in Kindle Worlds. Examples include Chef and Noga87’s “franken Joes.” Response:Ineligible 8. Characters from parallel or alternative universes that can interact with their non-alternative counterparts, EXCLUDING characters, such as Tamox from "Shattered Glass," who are merely alternative versions and can not interact with the original versions of themselves. Examples: the Baroness from “Worlds Without End” episodes. Response:Eligible 9. Characters of independent continuities who have unique code names but share the same GIVEN NAME as original or preceding characters. Examples: ROC Air Raid (Franklin Talltree), ROC Bench Press (Craig McConnel), and ROC Speed Metal (Sherman Guderian). Response: Eligible
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I <3 LJ, Chari, Phoenix, Sweetness, and the Skittles Queen Lady D owner of page 9301 of GI Joe, Monkeytown RIP Dark Songstress, Gyre-Viper, samantha Queen Charijoe's #1 Fan/champion Rising_Phoenix2's lackey TofuNinja's genin Sole Owner of Tali's Lab Total Forum Game kills:18 |
07-15-2016, 06:52 PM | #13 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,845
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Quote:
Survey Everyone who completes the following survey will earn two additional bonus nominations for the “Greatest G.I. Joe Character of all Time” poll. The entire survey must be completed to receive the bonus nominations. To complete the survey, simply quote this post and write one of the five responses listed below beside each of the nine survey statements. For example, if you agree that a certain character type should be allowed in the poll, write “Eligible.” If you strongly agree, write “Definitely Eligible.” If you disagree, write “Ineligible,” and if you strongly disagree, write “Definitely Ineligible.” If you are uncertain or don’t care one way or the other about a character type, write “Indifferent.” Choose one of these responses for each statement below: Definitely Eligible Eligible Indifferent Ineligible Definitely Ineligible 1. Characters that are not human or humanoid and have NO human shape or likeness, EXCLUDING plants and animals. Examples: synthoids, blobs, and giant alien eyeballs. Response:Ineligible 2. Characters that have ONLY appeared in a G.I. Joe crossover series, such as “Transformers vs G.I. Joe” or “Street Fighter x G.I. Joe,” regardless of origination. Examples: Marissa Faireborn, Stealth BAT, Bludgeon, Optimus Prime, Megatron, Chun Li, Blanka, Guile, and many more. Response:Ineligible 3. Characters that appeared but did NOT originate in G.I. Joe media, EXCLUDING those in a crossover series (see examples above) or previous poll winners (e.g. Sgt. Slaughter and Roddy Piper). Examples: Matt Trakker and Bullet Man. Response: Indifferent 4. Characters that were published but later retracted with a statement of correction. Examples: Rocky Balboa. Response: Indifferent 5. Characters that were unproduced or cancelled prototypes. Examples: Kaos Crew, Arkanoid (Manimal), Spasma (Manimal), and many more. Response: Ineligible 6. Characters that were unpublished sketches, concepts, or narratives. Examples: Dave Dorman's Dreadnok with a mohawk and Kurt Groen's pirate oil baron. (https://arealamericanbook.wordpress.com/tag/unproduced/) Response: Ineligible 7. Characters of unlicensed media, including custom toys and fan fiction but excluding licensed material in Kindle Worlds. Examples include Chef and Noga87’s “franken Joes.” Response: Ineligible 8. Characters from parallel or alternative universes that can interact with their non-alternative counterparts, EXCLUDING characters, such as Tamox from "Shattered Glass," who are merely alternative versions and can not interact with the original versions of themselves. Examples: the Baroness from “Worlds Without End” episodes. Response: Ineligible 9. Characters of independent continuities who have unique code names but share the same GIVEN NAME as original or preceding characters. Examples: ROC Air Raid (Franklin Talltree), ROC Bench Press (Craig McConnel), and ROC Speed Metal (Sherman Guderian). Response: Ineligible |
07-15-2016, 08:16 PM | #14 |
Darth_Henning
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 21,174
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1. Characters that are not human or humanoid and have NO human shape or likeness, EXCLUDING plants and animals. Examples: synthoids, blobs, and giant alien eyeballs.
Response: Eligible so long as they have some sort of consciousness. With Caveat that synthoids should be specified as the particular person they're replicating rather than an en-mass group. 2. Characters that have ONLY appeared in a G.I. Joe crossover series, such as “Transformers vs G.I. Joe” or “Street Fighter x G.I. Joe,” regardless of origination. Examples: Marissa Faireborn, Stealth BAT, Bludgeon, Optimus Prime, Megatron, Chun Li, Blanka, Guile, and many more. Response: This can't be reduced to something as simple as yes or no and must be decided on a case-by-case basis Lets say you have a G.I. Joe vs. Transformers Comic, and you have Duke, Bumblebee, Firing Pin (human Female G.I. Joe) and Armorside (male transforming autobot) protecting a scientist named Julie Jacobs. Well Duke and Bumblebee are obviously members of their respective universes. Firing Pin and Armorside never appear in another story in either universe. Well, Firing Pin is clearly intended to be a G.I. Joe which should make her eligible for this poll. By contrast, Armorside is clearly a transformer and should be eligible in THAT universe. The scientist Julie Jacobs is a character who presents a problem, and should be the only one captured under the question as it is written. And I don't know how best to answer that one. In your poll: Fairborne, Bludgeon, Prime, Megaton are all clearly Transformer characters, Chun Li, Blanka and Guile are all clearly Street Fighter characters, the only one really that should be in question is the Stealth BAT, because its based on the BAT from the G.I. Joe universe, but has transforming characteristics of the Transformers universe. That makes it difficult to say which universe he fits in better and I don't have a simple answer to that which would be the same problem as the hypothetical Julie Jacobs. SOME crossover characters lend themselves to a straightforward answer, others do not. This cannot be properly addressed by a blanket rule. 3. Characters that appeared but did NOT originate in G.I. Joe media, EXCLUDING those in a crossover series (see examples above) or previous poll winners (e.g. Sgt. Slaughter and Roddy Piper). Examples: Matt Trakker and Bullet Man. Response: Definitely Inelligible I think I've made my opinion on this clear long before now. But one addendum: Sgt. Slaughter and Roddy Piper are both described as the "ring names" of real people. They created personas for themselves in the fighting world to be more interesting and draw bigger crowds. By contrast, Trakker and Bullet Man were never real people and were created for specific universes that were not G.I. Joe. They did not spring from any basis in reality and should be acknowledged as originating and being a member of that universe, despite later cross-overs (which is what they are whether they are designated as such or not). Also, the "real person" criteria does leave it open for people to nominate ACTUAL heros who were immortalized in the old 12 inch G.I. Joe line (like General Patton). 4. Characters that were published but later retracted with a statement of correction. Examples: Rocky Balboa. Response: DEFINITELY Ineligible 5. Characters that were unproduced or cancelled prototypes. Examples: Kaos Crew, Arkanoid (Manimal), Spasma (Manimal), and many more. Response:Eligible. Don't have strong feelings on the subject, but if they went as far as being created as prototypes with planned characterizations and appearances, it seems unfair to penalize them for market softness preventing release. But meh. 6. Characters that were unpublished sketches, concepts, or narratives. Examples: Dave Dorman's Dreadnok with a mohawk and Kurt Groen's pirate oil baron. (https://arealamericanbook.wordpress.com/tag/unproduced/) Response: Inelligible if they are merely a general concept that was never fleshed out. 7. Characters of unlicensed media, including custom toys and fan fiction but excluding licensed material in Kindle Worlds. Examples include Chef and Noga87’s “franken Joes.” Response: Definitely Ineligible (also would include Custom sets like the currently ongoing Resurgence 3 no matter how well its done, or any non-licenced fan fiction like mine) 8. Characters from parallel or alternative universes that can interact with their non-alternative counterparts, EXCLUDING characters, such as Tamox from "Shattered Glass," who are merely alternative versions and can not interact with the original versions of themselves. Examples: the Baroness from “Worlds Without End” episodes. Response: Indifferent. I could make good arguments both ways. If someone cares to hear them to further the debate let me know. 9. Characters of independent continuities who have unique code names but share the same GIVEN NAME as original or preceding characters. Examples: ROC Air Raid (Franklin Talltree), ROC Bench Press (Craig McConnel), and ROC Speed Metal (Sherman Guderian). Response: Eligible I actually had to revise my stance on this given that I argued fairly strongly against Volga being separate from Diana in previous polls after consideration You can't identify without fail a person by either their real name or their code name without the use of the other. As much as these present obvious issues, in real life, its fairly common for two people to have the same name (we happen to live a couple blocks from a woman with the same name (first, middle and last) as my mom who is in no way related no matter how much both have looked into their family history) Its not impossible to consider that two "Franklin Talltree"s could have enlisted with the military ane eventually wound up with G.I. Joe. Just as we don't discount the second Lifeline, or Side Track due to having a different real name, we shouldn't discount guys with a different code name but same real name. Both can be used to identify a different person who happens to have a similarity. Of course the problem with this is that guys like Dataframe/Shockblast would suddenly be eligible, so I think if there's an obvious minor alteration to get around a copyright issue shouldn't be caught under this. It has to be a distinct change as listed with the examples. |
07-15-2016, 09:20 PM | #15 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,238
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I think we may be splitting too many hairs. The point of statement two is to determine if people consider characters eligible if they did not appear in mainstream GI Joe but did appear in crossover GI Joe. All other distinctions are irrelevant regarding the statement. In other words, do you want to consider a character a GI Joe character any time one appears in something with GI Joe attached to it? I'm not trying to ask whether you think one is actually a GI Joe or a Transformer but whether you consider them characters of the GI Joe universe simply because they appear in media with the brand name attached. You could always divide them into smaller categories as you just have but as you just pointed out those like Jacobs become a problem so why not simplify things with a general rule to avoid the ambiguity. If you think characters in crossovers are just as eligible as mainstream, then yes. If not, then no. And if something unusual pops up, then I'll just have to decide on it.
As for three, I just want to see what people think of the issue of origination without the real-life persona condition. In other words, how much does origination matter to them. As for nine, I didn't include Dataframe and so on because they are of the same continuity as the originals. So they wouldn't be eligible under that rule. The Lifelines and Dustys were shown to exist in the same continuity, plus they don't share given names. These are just general rules to gauge where people stand. When an anomaly pops up, we will just deal with it on the spot. The only method we have to determine if characters from separate continuities are the same is if they share some connection, and usually the connection is in the form of a given name or code name. We all know people can share the same name but when dealing with separate continuities we don't have much to go on but names. It's not like we can prove that Air Raids given name is a coincidence but we have to make a decision on the matter and there are only a few examples like these. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 07-15-2016 at 09:41 PM.. |
07-15-2016, 10:32 PM | #16 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,069
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Quote:
Survey 1. Characters that are not human or humanoid and have NO human shape or likeness, EXCLUDING plants and animals. Examples: synthoids, blobs, and giant alien eyeballs. Response: Eligible 2. Characters that have ONLY appeared in a G.I. Joe crossover series, such as “Transformers vs G.I. Joe” or “Street Fighter x G.I. Joe,” regardless of origination. Examples: Marissa Faireborn, Stealth BAT, Bludgeon, Optimus Prime, Megatron, Chun Li, Blanka, Guile, and many more. Response: Eligible 3. Characters that appeared but did NOT originate in G.I. Joe media, EXCLUDING those in a crossover series (see examples above) or previous poll winners (e.g. Sgt. Slaughter and Roddy Piper). Examples: Matt Trakker and Bullet Man. Response: Eligible 4. Characters that were published but later retracted with a statement of correction. Examples: Rocky Balboa. Response: Indifferent 5. Characters that were unproduced or cancelled prototypes. Examples: Kaos Crew, Arkanoid (Manimal), Spasma (Manimal), and many more. Response: Eligible 6. Characters that were unpublished sketches, concepts, or narratives. Examples: Dave Dorman's Dreadnok with a mohawk and Kurt Groen's pirate oil baron. (https://arealamericanbook.wordpress.com/tag/unproduced/) Response: Indifferent 7. Characters of unlicensed media, including custom toys and fan fiction but excluding licensed material in Kindle Worlds. Examples include Chef and Noga87’s “franken Joes.” Response: Indifferent 8. Characters from parallel or alternative universes that can interact with their non-alternative counterparts, EXCLUDING characters, such as Tamox from "Shattered Glass," who are merely alternative versions and can not interact with the original versions of themselves. Examples: the Baroness from “Worlds Without End” episodes. Response: Indifferent 9. Characters of independent continuities who have unique code names but share the same GIVEN NAME as original or preceding characters. Examples: ROC Air Raid (Franklin Talltree), ROC Bench Press (Craig McConnel), and ROC Speed Metal (Sherman Guderian). Response: Eligible |
07-15-2016, 11:10 PM | #17 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 161
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Quote:
Survey Everyone who completes the following survey will earn two additional bonus nominations for the “Greatest G.I. Joe Character of all Time” poll. The entire survey must be completed to receive the bonus nominations. To complete the survey, simply quote this post and write one of the five responses listed below beside each of the nine survey statements. For example, if you agree that a certain character type should be allowed in the poll, write “Eligible.” If you strongly agree, write “Definitely Eligible.” If you disagree, write “Ineligible,” and if you strongly disagree, write “Definitely Ineligible.” If you are uncertain or don’t care one way or the other about a character type, write “Indifferent.” Choose one of these responses for each statement below: Definitely Eligible Eligible Indifferent Ineligible Definitely Ineligible 1. Characters that are not human or humanoid and have NO human shape or likeness, EXCLUDING plants and animals. Examples: synthoids, blobs, and giant alien eyeballs. Response: Ineligible 2. Characters that have ONLY appeared in a G.I. Joe crossover series, such as “Transformers vs G.I. Joe” or “Street Fighter x G.I. Joe,” regardless of origination. Examples: Marissa Faireborn, Stealth BAT, Bludgeon, Optimus Prime, Megatron, Chun Li, Blanka, Guile, and many more. Response: Indifferent 3. Characters that appeared but did NOT originate in G.I. Joe media, EXCLUDING those in a crossover series (see examples above) or previous poll winners (e.g. Sgt. Slaughter and Roddy Piper). Examples: Matt Trakker and Bullet Man. Response: Eligible 4. Characters that were published but later retracted with a statement of correction. Examples: Rocky Balboa. Response: Definitely Ineligible 5. Characters that were unproduced or cancelled prototypes. Examples: Kaos Crew, Arkanoid (Manimal), Spasma (Manimal), and many more. Response: Definitely Ineligible 6. Characters that were unpublished sketches, concepts, or narratives. Examples: Dave Dorman's Dreadnok with a mohawk and Kurt Groen's pirate oil baron. (https://arealamericanbook.wordpress.com/tag/unproduced/) Response: Definitely Ineligible 7. Characters of unlicensed media, including custom toys and fan fiction but excluding licensed material in Kindle Worlds. Examples include Chef and Noga87’s “franken Joes.” Response: Ineligible 8. Characters from parallel or alternative universes that can interact with their non-alternative counterparts, EXCLUDING characters, such as Tamox from "Shattered Glass," who are merely alternative versions and can not interact with the original versions of themselves. Examples: the Baroness from “Worlds Without End” episodes. Response: Ineligible 9. Characters of independent continuities who have unique code names but share the same GIVEN NAME as original or preceding characters. Examples: ROC Air Raid (Franklin Talltree), ROC Bench Press (Craig McConnel), and ROC Speed Metal (Sherman Guderian). Response: Indifferent |
07-15-2016, 11:14 PM | #18 |
Darth_Henning
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 21,174
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Quote:
I think we may be splitting too many hairs. The point of statement two is to determine if people consider characters eligible if they did not appear in mainstream GI Joe but did appear in crossover GI Joe. All other distinctions are irrelevant regarding the statement. In other words, do you want to consider a character a GI Joe character any time one appears in something with GI Joe attached to it? I'm not trying to ask whether you think one is actually a GI Joe or a Transformer but whether you consider them characters of the GI Joe universe simply because they appear in media with the brand name attached. You could always divide them into smaller categories as you just have but as you just pointed out those like Jacobs become a problem so why not simplify things with a general rule to avoid the ambiguity. If you think characters in crossovers are just as eligible as mainstream, then yes. If not, then no. And if something unusual pops up, then I'll just have to decide on it.
Its like asking: Should all killing be banned? Yes, indifferent, or no? Well, you can make a blanket yes or no statement, but it makes no sense. Killing of an animal for food? Killing of someone while mugging them? Killing someone who's trying to rape and murder you in your home? Each of those does and should have different answers. Admittedly this is a far less extreme example, but the point stands, there are differences in the characters in crossovers, and trying to have a blanket crossover rule for all of them is as illogical as a blanket killing statement. It fails to recognize the details involved in the situation that have to be addressed. Quote:
As for nine, I didn't include Dataframe and so on because they are of the same continuity as the originals. So they wouldn't be eligible under that rule. The Lifelines and Dustys were shown to exist in the same continuity, plus they don't share given names. These are just general rules to gauge where people stand. When an anomaly pops up, we will just deal with it on the spot.
Quote:
The only method we have to determine if characters from separate continuities are the same is if they share some connection, and usually the connection is in the form of a given name or code name. We all know people can share the same name but when dealing with separate continuities we don't have much to go on but names. It's not like we can prove that Air Raids given name is a coincidence but we have to make a decision on the matter and there are only a few examples like these.
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07-16-2016, 06:28 AM | #19 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,238
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There needs to be a general rule to determine eligibility, correct? Right now the general rule says characters who didn't originate in GI Joe except for real-life personas are ineligible. That's a simple broad rule. It excludes all non-originating characters with one exception. I'm simply asking people if the origination matters. Would they care if all of the non-originating characters that are currently ineligible were eligible? I didn't make any of the distinctions you mentioned because those distinctions were not made under the current rule.
It sounds like you want to narrow it further, which is fine, but first I want to see where people stand on the broader rule. If you think origination matters, then saying yes or no makes perfect sense to me. The reason I phrased statements two and three as I did was due to the fact that many people that I spoke with drew a line between characters in crossovers versus those in mainstream GI Joe. So that's why they are written that way. I simply split the issue of origination between mainstream and crossovers appearances. Loose Cannon, for example, stated that characters with figures make a difference to him, which is fine, but for now I'm simply asking where people stand on origination when including crossovers and when excluding them. I have to start wide before I can start narrow. Do you see what I'm getting at? The survey is not a poll or vote. It's just to gather information. It sounds like your answer to number two would be ineligible unless there were other conditions, correct? So perhaps you'd like to set aside someome like Stealth BAT from the group. Fair enough. The reason I included examples was that I knew that some of the wording could be confusing. A lot of people made a division between Trakker because he appeared in mainstream Joe versus Faireborn who only appeared in a crossover series. So I grouped similar examples together with that in mind. I didn't make further divisions between the examples I gave because no one but you just recently brought it up. It may matter to others, but I don't know yet. Maybe I should've just asked: Do you consider a crossover series to be part of the mainstream? Or: Should crossover characters be eligible? Maybe that's clearer but I'm essentially gathering the same info. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 07-16-2016 at 07:56 AM.. |
07-16-2016, 07:41 AM | #20 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,238
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Maybe further breakdowns would be appropriate, such as these:
1. Characters from another brand or franchise that appear in mainstream GI Joe: Matt Trakker 2. Characters from another brand or franchise that only appear in a GI Joe crossover: Faireborn 3. Characters that originate and only appear in a GI Joe crossover: Stealth BAT |
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