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View Poll Results: Is Name Your Own "Create a Cobra" eligible for The Greatest GI Joe... polls? | |||
Yes | 23 | 67.65% | |
NO | 11 | 32.35% | |
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll |
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05-12-2016, 06:27 PM | #11 |
twitter viper
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: SD
Posts: 4,909
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Quote:
Wrong. To be eligible you have to be a CHARACTER first and foremost, which Create-A-Cobra is NOT by ANY definition of the word! By your own quoted definitions of the meaning of "character," this figure does not meet the criteria. Did you not notice the word "character" is in both the name of the poll and in its description of eligibility?
But he was NOT a CHARACTER! You can "view" him as whatever you want. But it is NOT defined by Hasbro or any Joe media. You can NOT assume he is a trooper, an individual, reinforcements or what-have-you. That info ain't there. If a costume is all that's needed to define a character, then Gung-Ho Dress Blues needs to be eligible because that was a new costume too. "So, can you tell us about this new Create-A-Cobra figure?" "Well, it's pink...ish and...that's all I got." As Sgt. Friday said if "you don't like the laws then you and your friends get together and you change them...when I gave my oath I agreed to enforce all the laws not just the ones I agreed with" ( Night School)
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05-12-2016, 06:28 PM | #12 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 10,816
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Can you read? You can't apparently read the TITLE of the poll, the RULES or the post you just quoted where I told you the first time that you failed to correctly read the title and the rules.
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05-12-2016, 06:38 PM | #13 |
twitter viper
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: SD
Posts: 4,909
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Good point, it is a hazy line. You used the word defined, the eligibility uses the word originated.
If you really want to get technical, troopers, vipers, eels, alley vipers and other divisions of Cobra comprised of individuals that have been voted into the poll are not characters either. No individuality. Now there have been specific individuals in most of those divisions. Evy, Tiny, Cadet Demming, The Crimson Guard in both the Operation Dragonfire and the Headman episodes etc. If you are going to accept those divisions of Cobra then why not another faceless nameless figure? Can't have one without accepting the other. Not really. I mean no one is going to change your mind on this, nor try to. Just suggesting that the wording of eligibility needs to be less broad, and since it is so broad, a lot of characters, figures etc could be up for lively debate.
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05-12-2016, 06:42 PM | #14 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,235
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I'll post some of our past discussion here so others can get more familiar with the debate.
Quote:
When a Viper or Alley-Viper appears in a comic, are they given an individual name? Are their specific character traits or personalities defined? No, they're just nameless troopers behind faceless masks acting as cannon fodder mostly. Occasionally one is singled out and given a personality, a name, a face. Raven is an example of a particular Strato-Viper. Rip-It is a particular HISS operator. Fred a particular Crimson Guardsman. Letal a Frag-Viper.
It's unfortunate CAC wasn't given a better title like Cobra Imperial Guard or Bazooka Trooper or Underwater Specialist or Air Viper--his bio simply says "Cobra Combat Command"--but the lack of a good title alone doesn't make him characterless. Why can't he be viewed as a Combat Command trooper, someone that works in the Cobra TOC or HQ as a staff or command specialist? Steel Brigade was given his titular code name only decades after his appearance to sell a modern figure, and they probably wanted his file card to reflect the format of other Joes with code names. I doubt there was any thought of characterization put into the decision. But isn't CAC's title kind of non-descript, you might ask. Well yes, and most troopers do have a title or code name that conveys their specialty but not all. The first cobra trooper was titled "Cobra," a very broad title that doesn't convey much. His Code Name was even worse: "The Enemy." A code name shared by multiple troopers, not to mention Cobra Commander. Fast Blast Viper has the title of "Branch: Field Combat" and Desert Viper's title is "Desert Battle". Not much consistency there. But fans who bought CAC gave him a specific code name and created a bio based on a template of limited choices. The characterization exists; it simply lay in the hands of the consumer. Much like a hired writer who might flesh out a general trooper and give him a face and personality and specific background in a particular episode or issue, the buyer is the one who fleshes out CAC. The characterization merely comes from a different source, and again, and most importantly, nothing in the rules precludes his eligibility. He's a human, he's not a second version of an existing character, and he appears in official media, which includes file cards in toy lines. PS And in response to your example of the EELs, this is why we need clear criteria for deciding who is and isn't eligible. I've currently been cataloging all of the troopers for this very purpose and I'm almost done with it. I've created some criteria that should not exclude any of the previous poll winners nor create a double-standard for future nominees, but I'm still looking for discrepancies. Quote:
The "Cobra Combat Command" is not a "title." It's meaningless. Steel Brigade's file card said the same thing on top, "G.I. Joe Combat Command." That is simply a reference to the entire Joe or Cobra organization.
Steel Brigade was NOT only given his name decades later. It's right there on the bottom right of the file card. CAC's file card has NOTHING there. REGARDLESS, Steel Brigade was MADE into a defined character by the Club 10 years ago and by POC later. If that had not happened, his eligibility could be disputed too. But I wouldn't dispute it because his file card says "Steel Brigade Team" right on it. You can view Create-A-Cobra as anything you like. That's the point. It wasn't given an identity or a name, so it's not a character. You're simply ignoring or failing to address all my clear, indisputable points, such as the fact that it could never be used in a comic book without the writer having to name it or explain what it is. You nitpick over the names of the first Cobra or whatever, totally ignoring that they have a complete bio on their file card. There is NO doubt what defines them as a character in the mythos. Create-A-Cobra has NO name and NO bio. His character is totally undefined and could be anything depending on who assigns him a name and traits. The "options" on Create-A-Cobra are CONTRADICTORY options. They are not a "starting point" on which the consumer embellishes later. They are NOT part of the character unless the consumer selects them. Create-A-Cobra is a FIGURE, not a CHARACTER, thus is not eligible for this poll. Quote:
Well I created a poll for the debate so it's in the hands of the majority now.
You have a point about the title being meaningless but the original Steel Brigade did not have a specialty title. It just says Steel Brigade Team. They are the same concept. One is a Joe, the other a Cobra, both of whom you created. Nitpicking is what we do here if we want to decide who's eligible, not just defer to YOUR judgement, or mine for that matter. If you require that characters must have a bio, then I guess that disqualifies Blue Ninja, right? He has no figure or bio, just an appearance in the comics. And what about characters that share the exact same bio like Cobra v1 and Viper Pilot? They both have the exact same bio and code name, The Enemy, and look the same with the exception of their sigil's color. The only differences are the title of "Viper Pilot" instead of "Cobra" and the addition of "Viper Pilot" in his secondary specialty. So by your logic, if there's a change in say the trooper's color (see uniform sigil) and a change in the character's specialty title, then he would be eligible, just like Viper Pilot, correct? Well if that's the rule, then we have to allow all the other versions of troopers who have some change of color on their uniforms and/or a change in their specialty title, which opens the door for dozens of other trooper. And if you care to take a look, you'll see that there are tons of variations in bios, code names, titles, and what have you. I'm simply trying to create some clear, logical, and consistent criteria. Nothing more. I noticed you also didn't address my most important point, which is that nothing explicitly in the rules precludes his eligibility. You have some valid points and so do I, as do others. But when we can't agree, we'll vote on it. Simple as that. Edit: I forgot to address your comment that "...[CAC] could never be used in a comic book without the writer having to name it or explain what it is." This is hardly indisputable. Since when have writers not taken liberties with characters by changing their history, background, ranks, personality traits, and even ethnicities? Or by not filling in back stories and retconning characters and giving otherwise nameless troopers a specific name and particular personality? So it's not impossible for me or anyone to write a story where I further characterize CAC with my own title, background, or whatever. Quote:
Give me a break. You know those early file cards for troopers just threw "the enemy" in there instead of naming the character based on his specialty. Hanging your argument on that early confusion in the labeling is pitifully weak. Viper Pilot is his code name as much as Crimson Guard or Tele-Viper were theirs. This error was corrected on the 25th versions of the cards as well.
OF COURSE the rules disqualify him. They say CHARACTERS are eligible. The CAC is not a character, it's a costume, an empty suit. Can I nominate Gung-Ho's Dress Blues uniform next? Or CC's Battle Armor? "FURTHER" characterize is a TOTAL misnomer! CAC has NOT been characterized AT ALL! I said this before and again you choose to ignore it. You ALSO ignore that I already said this is NOT "fleshing out" an individual Trooper. That's what comic writers do and what the kids filling out Steel Brigade bios did. CAC isn't even defined as a type of trooper. In fact, the order form asks you to say whether he's an Eel, a B.A.T., a Crimson Guard, etc. This is as undefined as it gets. Throwing the question of eligibility to a vote is a cop-out. The right answer is not always the same as popular opinion. Popular opinion could end up producing a whole lot of contradictory results and rules if you left everything up to that. The definition of the word "character" doesn't change just because most people might be ignorant of it. You can have a vote to change the rules to new wording if you want, but you cannot have a vote to redefine a word that's in the dictionary. Quote:
Seriously? Give you a break?
His code name is not Viper Pilot. It was The Enemy. I stated a fact. There all sorts of inconsistencies and discrepancies in file cards so whether they change it later doesn't mean it was a mistake. They go back and forth on stuff all the time. You assume he's not a character because he was not given a code name or bio by Hasbro. But that wasn't a RULE. Characters have been nominated that have appeared in media without much of any background, bio, or name. Are we sure Blue Ninja, for example, is a name or just a description? What kind kind of characterization does Fatal Fluffy have? He's a monster that goes around growling. I could argue he's not a character, but the rules didn't state one needed a specific name or bio or background. CAC is human and he originated in the Joe media. Period. So instead of letting everyone vote according to their interpretation of the rules and what a character is, we should just let you decide. Seriously? Democracy is a cop-out because you don't agree with what the majority might say, if the majority says he is a character? |
05-12-2016, 07:38 PM | #15 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 161
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No...
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05-12-2016, 08:29 PM | #16 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 2,184
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10-4 Good buddy! Looks Like CAC is gonna make it....How many posts before someone vows that they are done with the polls as a result of the outcome? (Kinda like "If_______wins, I am going to leave the United States!"
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05-12-2016, 08:42 PM | #17 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Louisville, Ky
Posts: 2,810
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Yes, and if he isn't then I am leaving the Tank!
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05-12-2016, 09:06 PM | #18 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,069
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05-12-2016, 10:11 PM | #19 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Mansfield, Texas
Posts: 3,863
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Ha, First world problems!!! Although I agree with Jedi Jones, I voted "Yes". I believe and support the idea of only "named individuals", but that ship sailed a long time ago. The second a troop builder was allowed into the poll, the meaning of "Character" flew out the window; and Create A Cobra became eligible.
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05-12-2016, 10:17 PM | #20 |
FEED ME MORE!
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Korugar, Space Sector 1417
Posts: 8,930
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Yes
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