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06-02-2011, 01:06 PM | #16351 |
EQ-Viper
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Quote:
But back in the 1960s and 1970s and the early 1980s, certain Army recruits could come in directly in pay-grades as high as E-6 after completing basic. This was because for certain occupational specialties (not the infantry though, IIRC) , there used to be a parallel "specialist" enlisted structure that was equivalent in pay, but not authority, to the NCO enlisted structure. For example, an experienced truck mechanic who had joined the Army to become a wheeled vehicle mechanic had two career track options open to him upon graduating basic: (1) he could either go the specialist route, where his civilian experience could possibly allow him to skip the E-2, E-3, and even E-4 and E-5 pay-grades directly into the E-6 pay-grade; or (2) he could choose the NCO route, where he would have to start at E-2, and work his way up the ranks the conventional way (by earning promotion points and accumulating time-in-service and time-in-grade). While the pay was equivalent, the specialist community and NCO community had differences in their authority. A soldier with the rank of Specialist 4 (a specialist in the pay-grade of E-4) had the same pay as a Corporal (a junior NCO in the pay-grade of E-4) but the latter, being an NCO, nominally outranked the former. Specialists only had authority over lower-ranked specialists and enlisted personnel in the pay-grades of E-1 to E-3. Thus, a Corporal technically outranked even a Specialist 6 (a specialist in the pay-grade of E-6). I suppose by way of analogy, the old specialist community was sort of the enlisted equivalent of today's warrant officer community (in that certain warrant officer ranks are roughly in the same salary bracket as some commissioned officer ranks, but do not share the same command authority powers except in certain situations, i.e., in the Special Forces and SEAL communities). There was very little, if any, crossover between the specialist and NCO communities. A Specialist 4 could only be promoted to Specialist 5 and not Sergeant (the NCO equivalent in terms of pay-grade) and a Sergeant could only be promoted to Staff Sergeant and not Specialist 6 (the specialist equivalent of the E-6 NCO rank). Of course, there have been exceptions. The parallel specialist structure was abolished by the Army in the mid-1980s (for various reasons), although they retained the lowest specialist rank (Specialist 4), which is known simply as "specialist" today and can still serve as the "entry rank" for bachelor's degree holders and certain experienced civilian professionals joining the enlisted Army community, although just as it was in previous decades, a corporal still nominally outranks a specialist despite being in the same pay-grade. The major difference now of course is that a specialist can be promoted to sergeant (some even get "laterally promoted" to corporal before making sergeant) and proceed down the NCO career route, once they fulfill the appropriate requirements. Civilian education still does contribute to promotion in the enlisted ranks, even though the specialist ranks (with the exception of the lowest specialist rank) have long since disappeared. IIRC, every semester hour completed by a soldier or sailor studying at an accredited college or university is equivalent to 1.5 promotion points, which would give him a leg up in terms of rank advancement over his peers who don't go to school part-time while in the service. Last edited by zuludelta; 06-02-2011 at 01:18 PM.. |
06-02-2011, 02:46 PM | #16352 |
Crimson Guard
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Thanks for the info Zulu, I suppose the other question to ask is what rank SS might have made in Vietnam - would one come back in at the original rank, or have to start from scratch again?
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06-02-2011, 03:35 PM | #16353 |
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Of course, this is all assuming that Storm-Shadow wasn't already in the Army before 1966 or 1967. If he re-enlisted after becoming a "good guy" (when he switched to the urban camo outfit in 1988), the standard practice across the services is that that he would have come in at the rank he held when he first left the service. Last edited by zuludelta; 06-02-2011 at 03:43 PM.. |
06-02-2011, 04:07 PM | #16354 |
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You could probably reconstruct a timeline of Storm-Shadow's time in Vietnam just based on what Stalker said in issue #26 of the old Marvel comic book series and the events depicted in the Snake-Eyes Trilogy (issues #94-96).
Stalker met Storm-Shadow and Snake-Eyes (January of 1968,a day before the start of the Tet Offensive) en route to attending Recondo School in Nha Trang. He notes in his recollection that SS and SE are close friends and had already done one tour together. A US Army in-country tour was about 12 months long. Throw in the 30 days leave that a soldier gets after serving an in-country tour and it's fairly certain that Storm-Shadow arrived in Vietnam, at the latest, in December of 1966. In-country Recondo School took anywhere between 2 weeks to 3 weeks on the average, and upon completing training, Stalker, Snake-Eyes, and Storm-Shadow were teamed up with Collins, Escobedo, and Saperstein as part of that ill-fated LRRP team, and served a tour together. How long they were into that twelve-month tour before the incident that killed Escobedo and Sapersten and Collins' capture by the NVA isn't exactly clear, but given that the typical volunteer contract was for three years, it would have been up by the time he finished his tour as a LRRP anyway, which would have been sometime in 1969 if signed up in 1966. |
06-02-2011, 06:38 PM | #16355 |
Hog Driver
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Quote:
You could probably reconstruct a timeline of Storm-Shadow's time in Vietnam just based on what Stalker said in issue #26 of the old Marvel comic book series and the events depicted in the Snake-Eyes Trilogy (issues #94-96).
Stalker met Storm-Shadow and Snake-Eyes (January of 1968,a day before the start of the Tet Offensive) en route to attending Recondo School in Nha Trang. He notes in his recollection that SS and SE are close friends and had already done one tour together. A US Army in-country tour was about 12 months long. Throw in the 30 days leave that a soldier gets after serving an in-country tour and it's fairly certain that Storm-Shadow arrived in Vietnam, at the latest, in December of 1966. In-country Recondo School took anywhere between 2 weeks to 3 weeks on the average, and upon completing training, Stalker, Snake-Eyes, and Storm-Shadow were teamed up with Collins, Escobedo, and Saperstein as part of that ill-fated LRRP team, and served a tour together. How long they were into that twelve-month tour before the incident that killed Escobedo and Sapersten and Collins' capture by the NVA isn't exactly clear, but given that the typical volunteer contract was for three years, it would have been up by the time he finished his tour as a LRRP anyway, which would have been sometime in 1969 if signed up in 1966. Later in that issue, Stalker says that Tommy and SE had already finished a tour together, while he on the other hand had only been with them for six months. We know that they are all together on Jan 30, 1968 (the only explicit date given). What we don't know is if that day occurred shortly before the infamous ambush or if that was the first time they met. If it was the first time that Stalker met SE and Tommy, then I'd say that Tommy and SE probably enlisted at the very beginning of '67, considering 8 weeks of BCT, 8 of AIT, 3 weeks of Jump School, and 4 weeks of leave prior to shipping out, which was the usual case. If either took LPC (Leader Preparation Course), then add another 2 weeks to their training. So Dec of 66 or Jan of 67 is a pretty good estimate. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 06-02-2011 at 06:55 PM.. |
06-02-2011, 06:50 PM | #16356 |
Hog Driver
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In addition: For my story I wanted Stalker to be a Shake N Bake Sgt, but the first NCO Candidate Course didn't begin until Sept 5 1967 and it lasted 12 weeks; the second phase took about 9 weeks, which means Stalker could have graduated and arrived in Vietnam right before or on the day of Jan 30, 1967, which works out perfectly. It also provides an explanation as to why it appears that Stalker was a Team/Squad Leader (although this is not explicit either) even though he has less time in country than SE and Tommy. It also puts Stalker in a unique position because not only is he new to combat but he's expected to lead men who have been in country longer and are inured to the hardships of battle.
Last edited by Tanksmasher; 06-02-2011 at 06:58 PM.. |
06-02-2011, 07:05 PM | #16357 |
EQ-Viper
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Quote:
For some reason, I remember thinking that the day before Tet '68 was the first time Stalker met SS and SE. I don't think there's anything that definitively reinforces or disputes this either way, but it "felt" to me like that was the idea. Could just be me misreading it though, or missing some other clues and cues. |
06-02-2011, 07:41 PM | #16358 |
Hog Driver
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Quote:
For some reason, I remember thinking that the day before Tet '68 was the first time Stalker met SS and SE. I don't think there's anything that definitively reinforces or disputes this either way, but it "felt" to me like that was the idea. Could just be me misreading it though, or missing some other clues and cues.
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06-02-2011, 08:02 PM | #16359 |
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That's how I read it. Makes sense and works for my purposes. So any thoughts as to why they would have papers telling them to go to MACV HQ? I'd like to keep this detail, but maybe Hama thought this was where soldiers working for SOG would go to get their orders, when in reality they would have been sent to CCN, CCC or CCS, and only if they were Special Forces, not an everyday LRP unit.
It's been a while since I read the specific comic book... was it explicitly stated that they were reporting to Saigon for MACV training? Maybe they were there because they were going to be operationally attached in support of MACV activities, whilst still administratively reporting to a Field Force or an Infantry Division. Last edited by zuludelta; 06-02-2011 at 08:04 PM.. |
06-02-2011, 10:24 PM | #16360 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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Maybe Stalker had to pick up say a wad of Cash? I can only think there was some supply that is hand carryable that a trusted Sgt was sent to pick up. I can't imagine what sort of training you would get in downtown Saigon?
But then when does Snake-Eyes go to Nha Trang? Between a 1st and second tour?
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