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03-12-2009, 10:55 PM | #3821 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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You guys check out the preview of G.I. Joe: Cobra? Looks pretty cool, can't wait to get it.
I just got the 3rd DVD set. Dusty makes it worth it, but just barely. What a waste of a set. I hate Serpentor and that skeleton... what were they thinking... Waste of a good character spot.
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03-12-2009, 10:57 PM | #3822 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Castle, Delaware
Posts: 4,498
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Yeah, but Dusty is totally worth it. One of the best figures of the line, and I'd love for him to be redone in TF camo.
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danielmford.com |
03-12-2009, 11:30 PM | #3823 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Montana raised currently in Utah
Posts: 127
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Quote:
You guys check out the preview of G.I. Joe: Cobra? Looks pretty cool, can't wait to get it.
I just got the 3rd DVD set. Dusty makes it worth it, but just barely. What a waste of a set. I hate Serpentor and that skeleton... what were they thinking... Waste of a good character spot.
__________________
Yeah my name is really dumb. |
03-13-2009, 12:32 AM | #3824 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
|
I was going to mention to you guys, that I've been working on constructing a Borovian military camp for the Joes to raid with German soldiers and Russian soldiers from the Indiana Jones line, and guard towers from "The Corps"... so far it's going pretty well. I've collected a lot of IJ German and Russian Soldiers, and I think it will work well.
I also think it will work for a South American/Sierra Gordo base for the corrupt rebel army/Cobra simpathizers... or an Islamic Terrorist training camp in "Sudan". I'm using the IJ KOTCS Ugha warrior figures for Recondo's allies, and the IJ Cairo Swordsman/Thugs respectively. I think it will also work out well. Also, I picked up one of the True Heroes/Soldier Force attack boats from TRU, and I highly recommend it. There have been a few threads about it on the tank, and I can tell you that it's a high quality item and with a little customizing it fits in great with the Joes.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
03-13-2009, 12:33 AM | #3825 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
|
Maybe it's dumb pride, but I don't like to be told that I'm flat out wrong without some facts to back it up... especially about something I know a bit about from first hand experience.
However, in an effort to be fair and thorough, I went tonight and purchased the two new books about Delta Force that were published at the end of last year... "Kill Bin Laden: A Delta Force Commander's Account of the Hunt for the World's Most Wanted Man" by Dalton Fury, and "The Mission, The Men, and Me: Lessons from a Former Delta Force Commander" by Colonel Peter Blaber. Both of these books were written by former Delta Force Commanders and are about their recent activities in Afghanistan and their principles on leadership. I'm going seriously consider Col. Abernathy's claims that I'm wrong about leadership in elite military units, and that I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. So I'm going to read the books and see what's what. I'm sure what I find will inform my understanding of the Joeverse, and I will be glad to offer the thread any information I find out. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong in the face of evidence... I would just like to see the evidence. So I'm going to read the most recently published material on the subject. Now, I do my best not to be rude to anyone, but I've never been one to back down from a challenge. I've been a part of this thread since the beginning and I'm a fairly regular contributor. There's been a lot of good information that's been written in this thread, and I would like to believe that I've offered more than my fair share of insightful comments, logical arguments, and insights into the Army's Special Operations - and some of that is first hand knowledge. However, for someone to say that I'm so wrong that he cannot allow me to go on unchallenged - the implication being that I'm lying or misleading the thread - is pretty directly rude. It's a challenge that I don't take lightly. But I'm not going to get into a rock throwing contest armed only with my word against the other man's word. Rather, I'm going to look at the material available - the most recent and best account available - and look at the evidence. I would hope that my integrity is not in question to the point that I can't be counted on to accurately report what I find. So, I'm offended, and I'm angry, but I'm not interested in getting into a pissing contest and causing a problem for the thread with name calling... I'm simply going to investigate and report. The facts will speak for themselves, and the thread can evaluate those facts for themselves. I would also recommend this: There's a group of us that have been on this thread for a long time. And there are a lot of posts on this thread - a lot of information that has already been covered. I'm glad for anyone to come to our thread. It's nice to have visitors. I would only suggest that a person might take the time to read through the thread before rehashing an argument that has already been discussed in depth hundreds of pages ago. The regular contributors to this thread are smart guys... guys who know G.I. Joe very well, and have been fans for a long time. I respect the other fans on this thread a lot... because they earned it over a long time, and over a lot of detailed discussions, and a lot of mutual respect... even when we disagree. I participate with this thread for a lot of reasons, one is that these are the smartest guys on the forum, another is that this is the most civil thread on the forum. I'm not here for a shouting match. Now, I'm going to read my books...
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? Last edited by oliverbox; 03-13-2009 at 03:16 PM.. |
03-13-2009, 02:15 AM | #3826 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,238
|
Well, I've just read the last few pages here and I must say that there are some good points on both sides. Colonel Hawk provided some really interesting information about Hama and the limitations of his work, but I don't see any fault with Oliver's assumption about command. I agree that Hama obviously had to overcome a lot of challenges set by Hasbro, and this explains some of the abnormalities that we find in the Joeverse. I think Hama is obviously familiar with the military and special forces, probably at least as familiar as I am, but there are some things that just don't make sense, and I'm not sure who is responsible.
But here's something to consider: tank commanders do not have to be officers. In a typical platoon of four tanks, there are four tank commanders. One is a platoon leader (O-2) and the others are all sergeants: one E-7 platoon sgt and two E-6 staff sgts. The gunners are usually E-5s and the drivers and loaders are either E-3 or E-4. So why would Hama insist that Steeler be an officer, if indeed that is what he did? I'm not saying he didn't do this, but it wouldn't have been incorrect for Hasbro to call Steeler a tank commander with an E-6 grade if that's what they wanted to do; however, to do something like call him a tank platoon leader with an E-6 rank would have been a mistake because platoon leaders are officers, not staff sgts. Also, Oliver is correct to say that an E-7 Delta operator is not going to have less experience and training than an E-5 Delta operator, precisely because the E-7 has been around longer. When a new E-5 gets to become a Delta operator and joins a Delta team that has E-7s and E-8 that have been there awhile, when is this E-5 going to be giving these guys orders exactly? Now maybe there's an E-5 who has a particular set of skills or specific training, as in EOD, that others don't have, but that doesn't mean he's in charge of the E-7 when the mission requires an EOD specialist. It just doesn't work that way. The E-5 can instruct the E-7 on things to do and give suggestions and advice about what should be done--and the man in charge should probably listen--but the team leader (who will have the highest rank) is going to be the one to give orders based on the E-5's expertise. The E-5 isn't going to give the orders. The military isn't run from the bottom up. There's a reason why officers lead NCOs and NCOs lead privates and why higher ranking officers or NCOs are in charge of lower ranking officers and NCOs respectively. Now this doesn't mean that you'll see a green-eared 2nd LT bossing a Sgt Major around like he's some kind of private, because that LT would later get his ass chewed. High ranking NCOs get a lot of respect because of their experience and knowledge, but the butter bar officer still always outranks the Sgt Major. Of course there are times when a higher ranking officer or NCO might accompany a team as an observer, which means he is not the guy leading the mission. The higher ranking observer can essentially "take orders", but he isn't officially getting told what to do. In all honesty, the joeverse doesn't precisely resemble any real military unit. As it's structured with armor, artillery, air support, naval support and men and women of all ranks, including an E-3 Ambush, they are not exactly like Special Forces, Rangers, Delta or even the regular infantry. The Joes are certainly similar to real military units, but they are a hybrid of many types. Now, there are some inconsistencies and inaccuracies and I'm not blaming (nor do I think anyone else here is either) Larry Hama for these small flaws. I'm sure mistakes were made by all parties involved in the process, and that's ok. We're all just trying to piece it together. I'm looking forward to hearing what Oliver has to say about Delta but I've also enjoyed hearing Col Hawk's view of Hama's involvement. I don't see any need to offend or be offended here. No one has to leave but saying someone is flat out wrong is a tad strong. Let's reconsider the arguments and give credit where it's due. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 03-13-2009 at 03:07 AM.. |
03-13-2009, 08:38 AM | #3827 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
|
One thing to also remember is that Hama's knowledge is from the early 80s to the early 90s. So it's possible that what he knew was from back in the day and that things have changed to Oliver's more recent knowledge (not sure when you served Oliver, but based on your age and you saying went out of high school, I'm thinking you entered in '98).
Now Hama's time, Delta was a fairly new group and it's quite possible that because of having to fill the unit, there were cases of lower ranking guys having more experience in Delta's new field of expertise and those guys were put in charge and were essentially "on the job" training the higher ranking guys who were assigned to the unit. If you have a new unit that's got a very specialized area of operation and you have to fill it pretty rapidly chances of having enough qualifed officers to put in charge is pretty slim. Chances are that there were alot of sargeants and such that had more field experience and training. So wouldn't you put those guys in "charge" so that they could train the higher-ups? Could be talking out my butt, but I'm thinking that the time difference could account for alot of the differences in knowledge.
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Join the New England G.I. Joe Collector's Group: Battleforce New England Join the March of Cobra. Read the epic adventure on Kindle Worlds and visit the page to learn more. https://www.facebook.com/marchofcobra/ |
03-13-2009, 08:45 AM | #3828 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
|
Quote:
I was going to mention to you guys, that I've been working on constructing a Borovian military camp for the Joes to raid with German soldiers and Russian soldiers from the Indiana Jones line, and guard towers from "The Corps"... so far it's going pretty well. I've collected a lot of IJ German and Russian Soldiers, and I think it will work well.
I also think it will work for a South American/Sierra Gordo base for the corrupt rebel army/Cobra simpathizers... or an Islamic Terrorist training camp in "Sudan". I'm using the IJ KOTCS Ugha warrior figures for Recondo's allies, and the IJ Cairo Swordsman/Thugs respectively. I think it will also work out well. Also, I picked up one of the True Heroes/Soldier Force attack boats from TRU, and I highly recommend it. There have been a few threads about it on the tank, and I can tell you that it's a high quality item and with a little customizing it fits in great with the Joes. Post some WIP pics. Yeah, I've seen that boat. Keep thinking of grabbing it. Take off the pick honking guns and it's pretty sweet. The 25th guys fit pretty good.
__________________
Join the New England G.I. Joe Collector's Group: Battleforce New England Join the March of Cobra. Read the epic adventure on Kindle Worlds and visit the page to learn more. https://www.facebook.com/marchofcobra/ |
03-13-2009, 01:29 PM | #3829 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
|
Now I really want to get to the bottom of the Delta Force command structure. My knowledge is limited. This theory that they have a whatever works mentality is a very suspect. It's still a military unit. I can see a SFC leading as Master Sgt on a particular mission. These guys my be very close in age and experience. But an Officer is an officer. And a Sgt Major is a more overall command position. He's not a field unit guy. I really wonder how many E-5 sgts are really in Delta Force? At least a Staff Sgt has some time in the service, But unless they are all like Repeater a master sgt would probably have 5 or more years on a Staff Sgt. True they are specialists and they may not have to answer to some Lt that is not a Delta operator, but I bet they answer to an officer somewhere. I also wonder how many Lt are in Delta force as well. These guys srtike me as older to begin with, beyond 6 years especially with the amount of training they get.
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03-13-2009, 01:44 PM | #3830 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
|
It all makes me wonder about how much Delta's structure may have changed from it's formation in the last 70s. I can really see it being pretty loose to begin with. Having a bunch of sargeants with the field experience and skillsets doing "on the job" training to a bunch of "green" officers and as the years went by and more and more of the officers received the training required and the skillsets the normal military structure took over.
Looking at Blackhawk Down, the Deltas in that movie seem to all be "even". The only one that really stands out as a leader is Sanderson (played by William Fichtner), who (in the movie, and I know from reading that the actual Capt. Steele, now Col. wasn't as indecisive as shown) seems to take leadership from the Ranger Captain. But then not sure how accurate the movie is, Eric Bana's character was a mix of a couple Deltas merged together from what I understand.
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