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11-27-2016, 09:52 PM | #21561 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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In Zap's case the schools (Engineer School; Ordinance School; Advanced Infantry Training) don't line up with "artillery."
All combat engineers will have some demolitions training. Not all will have EOD training. That's a sub-section of engineers (and clearance divers and airfield guys). The "demolitions" thing may not be an MOS. Maybe it's just that those guys went off and got trained in how to handle a variety of high and low explosives, but don't have the breadth of training of an actual engineer. |
11-27-2016, 10:51 PM | #21562 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,650
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Right Demolitions is not an MOS, but that task falls under the purview of the Engineers. I would equate the Joes with "Explosives" MOS to "Demolitions". I don't know if any have either as a Primary MOS, so I can see Demolitions as a sign to having completed The Sapper leader course.
So who are all the Combat Engineers -Demolitions types. I can see someone like Tollbooth being something more than a Combat Engineer, but that's his filecard.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
11-27-2016, 11:02 PM | #21563 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,650
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From Half the battle website:
Half the Battle: Indexes Engineering Combat Engineers Zap (engineer, combat engineer) Short-Fuze (infantry engineer) Blowtorch (combat engineer) Tollbooth (combat engineer) Tunnel Rat (combat engineer) Clean-Sweep (combat engineer) Space Shot (combat operations engineer) Demolitions Tripwire (demolitions) Rip Cord (demolitions) Flint (demolitions) Taurus (demolitions) Side Track (demolitions) Crossfire (demolitions) Torpedo (demolitions, underwater demolitions) Deep Six (underwater demolitions instructor) Wet-Suit (underwater demolitions) Tunnel Rat (explosives expert, explosives and demolitions) Mercer (explosives expert) Dodger (laser demolitions) Lightfoot (explosives expert, demolitions) Hardball (multi-shot grenadier) Static Line (Sky Patrol demolitions expert) Effects (explosives expert, explosives/munitions ordnance) Wreckage (demolitions specialist, demolitions
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
11-28-2016, 06:58 AM | #21564 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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I have been equating "demolitions" and "explosives" to either a Combat Engineer or a Special Forces Engineer Sergeant. Some of my Combat Engineers will also have taken the Sapper Leader Course and/or the EOCA course as well. That's how I see Tunnel Rat whereas I see Lightfoot as the EOD MOS.
In regards to Short Fuze I have him starting out as a Combat Engineer (Infantry Engineer). His Artillery PMS does not make sense though unless he went on to become a 13F Fire Support Specialist. That would make sense in the regard that he can plot indirect fire calculations in his head. However where does this leave his mortar speciality? I know 13F's direct artillery fire but do they also direct mortar fire as well or is that the job of a senior 11C? Otherwise I just make him a Special Forces Weapons Sergeant (who has training in mortars). Otherwise why would he go from a 12B Combat Engineer to an 11C Indirect Fire Infantryman? Special Forces would be a more logical progression after being a Combat Engineer. |
11-28-2016, 07:17 AM | #21565 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toxo-Zombie Land
Posts: 1,728
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Tripwire seemed like a "sapper / pioneer / combat engineer" also, since he not only cleared mines, but laid them down, also. (He carried 3 on his back.)
'Course, his uniform is highly reminiscent of a bomb expert's gear, ala "The Hurt Locker;" though I think Long Arm looks more like Jeremy Renner with his get-up (esp. his v.2 "S.W.A.T." action figure where he is an EOD Specialist [89D]). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapper : "In the U.S. Army, sappers are combat engineers who support the front-line infantry, and they have fought in every war in American history... "Designation as a sapper nowadays is earned as an additional proficiency. The U.S. Army authorizes four skill tabs for permanent wear above the unit patch on the left shoulder (Army Regulation 670-1 Chapter 29-13, Sub-Paragraph f). Along with the Sapper Tab, the Special Forces Tab, the Ranger Tab, and the President's Hundred Tab identify soldiers who have passed a demanding course of military instruction and demonstrated their competence in particular specialties and skills. "To wear the Sapper Tab, a soldier must graduate from the sapper leader course which is operated by the U.S. Army Engineer School at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. The sapper leader course is a 28-day course designed to train joint-service leaders in small unit tactics, leadership skills, and tactics required to perform as part of a combined arms team. The course is open to enlisted soldiers in the grades of E-4 (P) (in the army, specialist on the list for promotion to sergeant) E-5, and above, cadets, and officers O-3 (army captain) and below. Students can come from any combat or combat support branch of the service, but priority is given to engineering, cavalry, and infantry soldiers." Last edited by seaneley; 11-28-2016 at 07:30 AM.. |
11-28-2016, 09:30 AM | #21566 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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I think Tanksmasher and Zuludelta summed up all of the "demolitions/explosives/engineer" characters best:
I think this was from Tanksmasher: "Demolitions means 12B or 18C. If E-6 or below then a 12B. Could also mean Ranger School trained Both EOD and Demolitions could be a 12B with EOCA training" And this was from Zuludelta: Demolitions = Combat Engineer Explosives Expert = Combat Engineer or EOD Ordnance = EOD or Ammunition Specialist I use keep both of those in mind when determining a Joe's MOS. Right now I have four actual 89D EOD MOS Joes: Lightfoot Effects Long Arm (specifically version 2) Fast Draw (says Ordnance as one of his military specialties, which EOD falls under the Ordnance Branch) Tripwire and Tunnel Rat can both fall under either a 12B Combat Engineer with EOCA training or an 89D EOD tech. |
11-28-2016, 11:05 AM | #21567 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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I can see the demolitions as possibly being the result of having either arrived with, or having been sent on the SF Engineer course, which includes a healthy dose of blowing stuff up as described here Special Forces Engineer Sergeant (18C) | goarmy.com and here Inside the SFQC | Special Forces Association Or perhaps it could also be an in-house informal package to teach guys how to cut steel, concrete and timber, and maybe shift some dirt.
On a completely different note, Blue Light. It was the topic of speculation a few times. There’s a great series on the unit here, which is free to read until Christmas: https://sofrep.com/?s=blue+light. One of the articles is basically redone here, which includes one of the coolest photos ever: https://sofrep.com/68278/delta-force...ft-take-downs/. The site also has a pair of great series’ on Delta https://sofrep.com/?s=history+of+delta and ST6: https://sofrep.com/?s=beyond+neptune+spear. Geek out! |
11-28-2016, 10:28 PM | #21568 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toxo-Zombie Land
Posts: 1,728
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Quote:
TUNNEL RAT (v1), YOJOE.COM |
11-28-2016, 10:37 PM | #21569 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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Quote:
I know that the 12" version of Tunnel Rat was called an "Army Ranger", instead of the usual "Explosives Expert" and "E.O.D." of the 3 & 3/4" action figures. Would that affect his background at all?
TUNNEL RAT (v1), YOJOE.COM |
11-29-2016, 02:37 PM | #21570 |
just a Marine
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: central PA
Posts: 1,681
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interesting discussion here as always.
In the Marine Corps, mortarmen are infantry, not artillery, even though mortars are really indirect fire weapons like arty, MOS 0341. MOS 0351 and 0352 are "assault men", they operate anti tank weapons and as a dual role, they are trained in explosives. And, when an infantry Marine hits Staff Sergeant, E-6, they become a 0369 infantry platoon sergeant, are expected to be competent in leading all of the infantry MOSes. So, guys like Zap and Short Fuse are not that far fetched in the Marine Corps. Also, while there is the indirect fire skills of setting up the tube (mortar or arty) with placement, angles, and charge, there is also the Forward observer job, which can be anyone calling in for fire support and again, at least in the Marine Corps, all officers are trained in call for fire, and all combat MOSes get some training in it and there is additional training and various schools where it is reinforced. Call for fire is an important combat skill so guys like Short Fuse and Zap could just be guys that went to a mortars call for fire course, or happen to be good at it so Hawk assigned them that duty, you two guys are our FOs when we need to get hot steel on steel. |
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