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04-06-2016, 09:05 PM | #20731 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Maybe they could differentiate themselves from other SOF units by following a different directive. Such as being solely tasked with fighting Cobra, or deputized by the Justice Department to get around posse comitatus. I like the idea of experimental weapons testers. There is also the Task Force aspect. Except in their case the mission was extended since the President or DOD is able to get extra funding or carte blanch because the Joes are so successful.
__________________
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
04-06-2016, 09:05 PM | #20732 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,238
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Great topic for discussion, Zulu. This was a dilemma I encountered when I was creating an origin for GI Joe's development. Initially GI Joe, for me, was born out of JFK's desire to build small but effective special operations forces. Tasked with the initial assignment, Colton experiments with the first joint operational force in Vietnam under the SOG umbrella. After the war there was no urgency to further develop the idea until the late 70s when an anti-terrorist force was needed and the idea of a unit like Delta Force sprang forth. Beckwith and Colton had similar but competing ideas. Both cooperated to develop the ultimate unit but eventually diverged because of different philosophies. Ultimately they were both awarded the opportunity to build units that would compete to fill the needed role. Beckwith wanted to build upon the skill sets of units like Special Forces and SAS with an exclusive, elite CQB unit that could go into any situation and abduct or destroy high-value targets and defuse hostage situations or hijackings. Colton imagined a more conventional force that combined the best that all the branches had to offer.
Since G.I. Joe has always employed aircraft and armor and naval vessels, sailors, marines, infantryman, and elite SOF types, I wanted to keep all of those elements together so I had Colton devise a plan to incorporate these assets into a joint task force that would grow alongside of JSOC, and USSOCOM for that matter. What I came up with was a kind of heavy SOCOM or SOF-capable unit, similar to an MEU, that would eventually grow into a mobile, globally-integrated combatant command. A kind of permanent task force, if you will, with organic assets that could reorganize for a variety of missions. Where Delta Force failed was its reliance on outside supporting assets to assist in missions. The 160th SOAR, I believe, grew out of the Operation Eagle Claw debacle. But Colton wanted a unit that would provide its own aviation assets, artillery, armor, carrier strike group...whatever it needed to accomplish its objective. This concept allowed me to keep all of the conventional assets, like fighter aircraft, the USS Flagg, and other weaponry, to combat a powerful force like Cobra, which is another organization whose existence requires a justification in its own right. Why does Cobra exist? What real-world objectives might it have and how do these objectives influence its organization? World domination for the sake of world domination seems a bit of a stretch, but I think in order to determine what GI Joe should be, we also need to establish what Cobra is, because its existence is the very impetus for GI Joe's creation. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 04-06-2016 at 09:08 PM.. |
04-06-2016, 09:51 PM | #20733 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
|
Interesting ideas, guys.
I do wonder if weapons counterproliferation would be an ideal fit for GI Joe's primary mission. It's a core activity for Army SF, after all, and it's an important aspect of DEVGRU's original remit. And since Cobra, in almost any significant media incarnation of the property, has been involved in the illegal arms trade, it seems like it sets them up in natural opposition. As for GI Joe's service composition/alignment, I wonder if, as an alternative to the joint special missions task force idea, it would be better to just make it an Army unit, albeit one with a hefty (but not overly-large) complement of individual augmentees from the other services. Have enough augmentees that they significantly add to the unit's capabilities, but not so many that cross-service interoperability becomes a problem (which, to me, means if GI Joe is a company-sized Tier One SOF unit, you probably have fewer than a dozen augmentees from the Navy and the Marines). For one thing, aligning GI Joe with the Army radically streamlines things like sustainment/logistics, questions of ADCON vs OPCON vs TACON, etc. And it's not like sailors and Marines haven't served with ISA or 1st SFOD-D in individual billets before. There have been documented precedents for this happening. The Navy even has a level-4 sequence NEC code for sailors serving in just such a billet. It's NEC 9557 (Joint Special Operations), which is awarded to sailors who meet the following qualifications: Quote:
Completion of training and experience in Joint Special Operations planning and execution. Qualified to perform/support unconventional and special warfare operations as a member of a Joint Special Operations Task Force. Assignments are for a 4-year tour, and NEC is awarded to Sailors assigned to applicable units upon successful completion of organic training and at least 24 months onboard.
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04-06-2016, 10:42 PM | #20734 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
|
Damn who is that badass?
__________________
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
04-06-2016, 11:19 PM | #20735 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Your speculation is as good as mine. My first guess would be that the NEC is given to individual SEALs, Navy EOD Technicians, or SARCs/IDCs who serve on a so-called "dark side tour" with ISA or 1st SFOD-D. But it could be for anything, really. Could even be for an Electronics Technician or Information Systems Technician assigned to JSOC's Joint Communications Unit.
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04-07-2016, 02:19 AM | #20736 |
Commando
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Britain
Posts: 3,831
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in my Black Sword fic, the Joes are tasked specifically with hunting Cobra, as are Black Sword.
in my Combined Universe fic, they were reinstated to fight the Red Shadows assault on DC and then kept around by Presidential authority to hunt the Shads, Cobra, the Coil, Skull Squad and Black Dragons. |
04-07-2016, 06:24 AM | #20737 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
|
Quote:
Interesting ideas, guys.
I do wonder if weapons counterproliferation would be an ideal fit for GI Joe's primary mission. It's a core activity for Army SF, after all, and it's an important aspect of DEVGRU's original remit. And since Cobra, in almost any significant media incarnation of the property, has been involved in the illegal arms trade, it seems like it sets them up in natural opposition. As for GI Joe's service composition/alignment, I wonder if, as an alternative to the joint special missions task force idea, it would be better to just make it an Army unit, albeit one with a hefty (but not overly-large) complement of individual augmentees from the other services. Have enough augmentees that they significantly add to the unit's capabilities, but not so many that cross-service interoperability becomes a problem (which, to me, means if GI Joe is a company-sized Tier One SOF unit, you probably have fewer than a dozen augmentees from the Navy and the Marines). For one thing, aligning GI Joe with the Army radically streamlines things like sustainment/logistics, questions of ADCON vs OPCON vs TACON, etc. And it's not like sailors and Marines haven't served with ISA or 1st SFOD-D in individual billets before. There have been documented precedents for this happening. The Navy even has a level-4 sequence NEC code for sailors serving in just such a billet. It's NEC 9557 (Joint Special Operations), which is awarded to sailors who meet the following qualifications: The next question is how large of a unit? As it stands I have my Joes structured as having a HQ element headed by a Colonel (in this case Joe Colton) with two Sabre Squadrons (one lead by LT. Col Hawk and the other by Lt. Col. Courage) and a Support Squadron (EOD, CBRN, Forward Observers, MWD, Intelligence, IT, etc). I was going to add a Motorpool (so I could place Joes such as Cover Girl and Dodger) but that would fall more under Logistics and I am not sure a small unit would have such a sub-unit. I am constantly changing things, thus making it difficult to continue writing my fan-fic that I have been working on for at least three years. Oh and I re-read Charlie Beckwith's book "Delta Force" and the Commander of A Squadron was actually an Armor Officer. I only bring this up because I have been trying to make a case of using Armor guys such as Steeler in a SOF unit. After reading that I was more at ease making him a Commander in one of my Assault Troops. I figured the Joes would allow any MOS to try out for it. How does that old adage go, you can teach a cook to shoot but can't teach a shooter to cook (or something along those lines)? |
04-07-2016, 07:02 AM | #20738 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
|
I once tinkered with the idea of Joe being the tactical arm of the ATF. It have been right after watching Lord of War. Anyway, that falls under the counter-proliferation, plus explosive threats. There could be a direct action component, though the ATF doesn't have a great record on that score . . .
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04-07-2016, 07:48 AM | #20739 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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At the risk of giving away the plot and details of my fanfic which I'm trying to turn into a Kindle worlds novel, here's how my Joe Team exists..
After what I will call the 'Nanzhao incident' in my book - terrorists gain access to WMD from a failing state and come within a whisper of detonating on US soil, a public outcry causes the then president to commission a report. The commission chaired by ex-JSOC commander Colton concludes that there was no fault by any of the Intelligence agencies or the military but the processes legal, logistical or otherwise can be too slow and terrorists are beginning to understand and work within those constraints. Added to that is the pressures of the GWOT means that the US's CT effort has been concentrated on 'the archer instead of the arrow' and a new unit is needed to complement this effort except it concentrates on 'the arrow, instead of the archer' going after those who would supply and distribute the ways and means of terrorists obtaining WMD (which will put them in the cross hairs of MARS and later COBRA) In effect this new unit would go after the 'supply' whereas existing Tier 1 units would go after 'demand'. A new unit is created with spaces and funding left over from the defunct Joint Special Operations Command - Capabilities, using the framework and support agreements, logistic support memorandums of understanding and service level agreements left over from the (as far as I know defunct) Proactive Preemptive Operations Group aka P2OG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proact...erations_Group Oversight for this new group is centered in a special operations executive within the National Security Council who will define the national strategy, coordinate policy and enunciate action. In other words, they're the Jugglers. The new unit will be under the Tactical Control of the NSC thru the deputy National Security Advisor for Counter Terrorism and Counter Proliferation and the administrative control of JSOC, just like the proposed P2OG. Like any new unit, it initially draws alot of contempt and mistrust at the higher ends of the SOF community as suddenly the new unit will be competing for funding, resources (including personnel) and missions. The Tier 1 units will not be happy losing part of their mission to a newcomer. Thus the new unit is hung with the condescending sobriquet of 'Joe's team or Joe's Guys' which the group adopt as a kind of 'fuck you' and call themselves 'the Joes'. It's a bit more complicated than that because I've found some of the existing Presidential Policy directives and actual physical spaces within the National Security structure for the Joes to actually exist (at least I like to think so). I've actually started writing; 1) a fictional strategic paper by Colton that would set the stage for the creation of the Joe Team outlining the key security challenges facing SOF and addressing the critical needs for SOF which will attempt to explain why the Joes have a Space program, fast jets, etc. It's strongly influenced by a paper called ‘Beyond the Ramparts – The Future of US Special Operations Forces’ by Jim Thomas & Chris Dougherty. Center for Strategic & Budgetary Research Beyond the Ramparts: The Future of U.S. Special Operations Forces | 2) and a short story based on the actual creation - where they find the funding, how they came up with the Table of Distribution and Allowances, the training etc. Strongly influenced by the creation of MCSOCOM DET One in the link I provided a few pages back. The Joes will also include a small HRT element from the FBI and a small CIA element. This part of the team is strongly influenced by the reboot of Tom Clancy's Op Center - Out of the Ashes. A reboot series ghost written by Dick Couch and others. Last edited by Tyroc; 04-07-2016 at 07:53 AM.. |
04-07-2016, 08:51 AM | #20740 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
|
I love how thorough your Joe-verse is Tyroc. Mine seems pale in comparison. lol
I start my fanfic with Col. Colton being called to The Pentagon for a meeting with Generals Flagg and Austin. They choose him to lead a new counter proliferation unit because of his track record. Colton is currently in Special Forces and has distinguished himself well throughout his military career. The next part fast forwards to about a year/year and a half where the Joe team is small but operational (maybe one Sabre Squadron with two Troops and a Support Squadron at the time). A 24-man team (including MWD and EOD from the Support Squadron) assault a Boko Harum warehouse in Nigeria because of suspected surface to air missiles and launchers being housed in there. The weapons were sold to the Nigerian government by MARS but were stolen by Boko Harum (with assistance by agents from Cobra). This will start the slow realization of MARS being behind selling weapons to a legit source and Cobra assisting rogue groups in taking them. In my Joe-verse Cobra is a legit private military company but its more ruthless operators are inducted into the more "secretive" part of the organization. This more secretive group takes part in illegal activities for further gain (money, power, etc). Arbco Security Corporation (the legit side of things) was started by two ex-military guys, Cobra Commander and Serpentor. In my fanfic Serpentor is not some DNA-cloned super soldier, he is a regular guy who was supposedly killed during operations in Iraq (possibly by CC, who wanted him out of the picture because he didn't want to share power with him anymore). He will later show up in the story (kind of like "rising from the dead" in keeping with the original spirit of the character) after spending years in a hospital oversees recovering from his wounds. He will go on to challenge CC on power sharing with Arbco (thus keeping the rivalry aspect that is prevalent in the comics and the toons). Last edited by john shaft; 04-07-2016 at 08:52 AM.. Reason: Clarification |
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