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02-06-2010, 11:59 AM | #11351 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 1,230
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Quote:
In the Action Force comics they dealt with things that would realistically be in the remit of the SAS/SBS (as much of the comic was set in the UK), but it seemed to me that Action Force were chosen because of the Cobra link. Some of the Action Force members were SAS trained e.g. Flint passed through "SAS's Hereford College" (by which I suppose they meant "selection") |
02-06-2010, 03:08 PM | #11352 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
Hmm, that's not the way I read them (and indeed the Action Force comics). Action Force/GI Joe were an international counter terrorist team (part of the MOD - Ministry of Defense) setup to deal with Cobra, taking suitable members from all branches of the armed forces of all countries.
In the Action Force comics they dealt with things that would realistically be in the remit of the SAS/SBS (as much of the comic was set in the UK), but it seemed to me that Action Force were chosen because of the Cobra link. Some of the Action Force members were SAS trained e.g. Flint passed through "SAS's Hereford College" (by which I suppose they meant "selection") I'm simply saying that the AF Battle Files from the comic list that Hawk had formally worked with "Delta Force". And that he commanded the American Counterpart to Action Force. Also, there were several other AF characters who came from an SAS background: Footloose, Outback, Beach-Head, etc. I'm just saying that according to the Action Force Battle Files that were printed in the comic, it seems that Delta Force is mentioned as a separate organization. So is the SAS, but that was the case in the American comic as well. But if AF was an asset of the Ministry of Defense, then wouldn't it be an echelon above the SAS or SBS? Doesn't the SAS/SRR come under the purview of the British Army, and the SBS come under the purview of the Royal Navy/Marines? That's the argument I'm making about the American understanding of G.I. Joe... it should be an asset of the Department of Defense, not come under any one of the Branches. There are certain technical, and legal concerns that would be different for the Joes as a DoD asset, rather than coming under the purview of the Department of the Army, for example. But I'm not an expert on Action Force, by any means. So perhaps there's other information from the AF comic that I don't understand. I probably need to go over to Blood for the Baron and just read all the comics. I've enjoyed the ones I have read.
__________________
Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
02-06-2010, 03:24 PM | #11353 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
I think every Acronym organization in the Government would be working against Cobra. In fact, the U.S. might have declared war on Cobra... maybe. Maybe it would treat it more like North Korea or Iran - just something to keep an eye on, but every organizaiton is aware of it. I mean, if Cobra is working inside the U.S., the F.B.I. and Homeland Security guys are going to be all over it - and they're going to tell the military and the C.I.A. to butt out. If Cobra Island were less than a 100 miles off the Gulf Coast, the Navy and Marines would be involved, and the Coast Guard would be on constant Alert - and that means Dept. of Homeland Security. If Cobra Terrorists attacked Ft. Hood, or Ft. Polk, the Army is going to send in Delta Force... and if Cobra attacked an Army base over seas, Delta is probably going in. Similarly, if they attacked a Navy Base in Spain or Okinawa, DevGru is probably going to be tasked to deal with it. Mainly, because the Dept. of the Army and the Dept. of the Navy are not going to sit around and wait for the DOD to send in the Joes - they're going to send their own units to deal with these "Terrorists" no matter what kinds of uniforms they're wearing. The way I see it, it sort of like the same reason the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force all want to have their own Tier 1 CT units... they want to be able to deal with these situations without outside help, and with less "red tape" from a chain of command. The President and SecDef would want the same capability if they were dealing with a group of Terrorists that were so entrenched into America. They would need an elite, Quick Reaction, Tier One Counter Terrorist Unit to deploy as need be, and they would need it to not fall into any particular branch of the military to avoid the legal complications of deploying to U.S. soil.
__________________
Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
02-06-2010, 07:05 PM | #11354 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 1,230
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Quote:
So that might side-step that issue. Quote:
That's the argument I'm making about the American understanding of G.I. Joe... it should be an asset of the Department of Defense, not come under any one of the Branches. There are certain technical, and legal concerns that would be different for the Joes as a DoD asset, rather than coming under the purview of the Department of the Army, for example.
But I'm not an expert on Action Force, by any means. So perhaps there's other information from the AF comic that I don't understand. I probably need to go over to Blood for the Baron and just read all the comics. I've enjoyed the ones I have read. |
02-06-2010, 08:11 PM | #11355 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Quote:
Yeah I get the same impression about Hawk, but his rank would make him ripe for service. Still he's not an Infantry Officer, yet why is he leading an Anti-Terrorist team to begin with? Hell I never saw Hawk fire the MMS even once.
As far as Gung-Ho I'm really wondering about comics or somewhere else. Like Troy pointed out, it's probably true that Grunt and Steeler and others didn't serve in Nam but it's not impossible to rationalize that they did either, which is sort of what I'm doing. After all, the 1982 toyline's designs were very Nam-inspired. For instance, I'm using Doc as a combat medic who goes to medical school and OCS after the war and returns to service. And Steeler is an enlisted tank loader who goes through ROTC and college after the war to fulfill his dream of becoming commander of a tank platoon. And Hawk serves as an infantry platoon leader for 6 months before transferring back to artillery. Don't forget that many guys didn't always work initially in their MOS. Many had a secondary MOS or duty MOS different from the MOS they trained for in AIT. In my Nam story, Grand Slam serves as a forward observer, Wild Bill as a LRP then Huey pilot, Airborne as a Huey gunner, Breaker as an SF RTO, Recondo as a pointman in a recon platoon like the "Recondos", Mutt as a dog handler in a combat tracker team (without Junkyard of course), Spirit as a CTT's visual tracker, Keel-Haul as an F-4 fighter pilot, Ripcord as a pathfinder, Clutch as an APC driver, Tripwire as a Tunnel Rat or engineer, Torpedo as a SEAL, Leatherneck and Gung-Ho as recon marines, Shipwreck as a gunner's mate on a PBR, Snowjob as a sniper, Duke as a SF interpreter and instructor, and of course Stalker and SE as LRPs and eventually One-Zeros in SOG recon teams, plus more. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 02-06-2010 at 08:17 PM.. |
02-06-2010, 08:31 PM | #11356 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Quote:
Right, I understand that in England, Action Force was a British Counter Terrorism Unit. And yes, I understand that it's missions were accomplishing the same goals as the SAS/SBS/SRR.
I'm simply saying that the AF Battle Files from the comic list that Hawk had formally worked with "Delta Force". And that he commanded the American Counterpart to Action Force. Also, there were several other AF characters who came from an SAS background: Footloose, Outback, Beach-Head, etc. I'm just saying that according to the Action Force Battle Files that were printed in the comic, it seems that Delta Force is mentioned as a separate organization. So is the SAS, but that was the case in the American comic as well. But if AF was an asset of the Ministry of Defense, then wouldn't it be an echelon above the SAS or SBS? Doesn't the SAS/SRR come under the purview of the British Army, and the SBS come under the purview of the Royal Navy/Marines? That's the argument I'm making about the American understanding of G.I. Joe... it should be an asset of the Department of Defense, not come under any one of the Branches. There are certain technical, and legal concerns that would be different for the Joes as a DoD asset, rather than coming under the purview of the Department of the Army, for example. But I'm not an expert on Action Force, by any means. So perhaps there's other information from the AF comic that I don't understand. I probably need to go over to Blood for the Baron and just read all the comics. I've enjoyed the ones I have read. |
02-06-2010, 08:38 PM | #11357 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
About Hawk, I've been thinking about the Action Force Battle File that says he served in "Delta Force". That's not impossible for an Artillery Officer. He's a West Pointer, and a Combat Arms Officer - so he's Airborne and Ranger qualified. He could have been asked to try out for Delta if his service record was good, and I'm sure it was. Also, about 40% of Delta Force comes from the Ranger Regiment; Hawk could have easily been serving as an Artillery Officer in the Ranger Regiment and gotten an invitation to try out for Delta. Less than half of Delta Operators are actually Special Forces qualified. A lot of Delta come straight from the Rangers, or the 82nd Airborne, or the rest of the Army. Same for the ISA. Also, in the 50's and 60's, Special Forces was not it's own branch. Most of it's members were Infantry, but they took soldiers from all branches (just like they do today) and let them try out for SF. It's possible, especially if Hawk went to Delta early on, that he had served as an SF officer in Vietnam. Granted, I'm stretching what's possible, but his Branch (Artillery) doesn't preclude Special Forces in 'Nam. The Crossed Arrows (the Branch Insignia of SF) were not an official Branch insignia. They started as as an SF thing, but by the 80's the Army recognized them as it's own Branch (18 series). In 'Nam, SF guys were still listed as (11) Infantry or (12) Artillery or whatever.
__________________
Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
02-06-2010, 08:45 PM | #11358 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
Isn't GI Joe described as Special Counter-Terrorist Group Delta, which doesn't necessarily make them SFOD-D, but I see them operating in a similar format. In fact, I'm re-imagining them as D-Force's friendly competition. When JFK tasked Colton to create an elite unit, he initially teams up with Beckwith but because their ideas and personalities differ greatly, they eventually split and Colton goes on to form GI Joe with the help of Hawk and others while Beckwith creates D-Force.
I mean, in a lot of ways, SEAL Team 6/DevGru was brought into being because of what happened in Iran in '79, and Marcinko thought he could do better with the SEALs. Honestly, Delta and DevGru have almost the exact same job. But to me, the Jugglers seem to be the best evidence that the Joes are a DoD asset, and not just the property of the Army. If all those generals from different branches have oversight, it must be a DoD operation. Otherwise, the the Army Chief of Staff would tell the other branches to shove off, and General Flagg wouldn't have to play so much politics.
__________________
Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
02-06-2010, 10:11 PM | #11359 |
I.O. SpecOps
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a secret underground bunker.
Posts: 4,404
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Quote:
Man, I always miss out on the great discussions. Don't forget to add Colton to the list. Plus I think you can infer Tunnel Rat--since tunnel runners were no longer offically used after '71--and Recoil--since LRRPs were redesignated Rangers in '69. Granted, many of the Joes could have served in Nam regardless of current rank because like Mainframe and Snake Eyes and others, they could have left the service and returned later.
Like Troy pointed out, it's probably true that Grunt and Steeler and others didn't serve in Nam but it's not impossible to rationalize that they did either, which is sort of what I'm doing. After all, the 1982 toyline's designs were very Nam-inspired. For instance, I'm using Doc as a combat medic who goes to medical school and OCS after the war and returns to service. And Steeler is an enlisted tank loader who goes through ROTC and college after the war to fulfill his dream of becoming commander of a tank platoon. And Hawk serves as an infantry platoon leader for 6 months before transferring back to artillery. Don't forget that many guys didn't always work initially in their MOS. Many had a secondary MOS or duty MOS different from the MOS they trained for in AIT. In my Nam story, Grand Slam serves as a forward observer, Wild Bill as a LRP then Huey pilot, Airborne as a Huey gunner, Breaker as an SF RTO, Recondo as a pointman in a recon platoon like the "Recondos", Mutt as a dog handler in a combat tracker team (without Junkyard of course), Spirit as a CTT's visual tracker, Keel-Haul as an F-4 fighter pilot, Ripcord as a pathfinder, Clutch as an APC driver, Tripwire as a Tunnel Rat or engineer, Torpedo as a SEAL, Leatherneck and Gung-Ho as recon marines, Shipwreck as a gunner's mate on a PBR, Snowjob as a sniper, Duke as a SF interpreter and instructor, and of course Stalker and SE as LRPs and eventually One-Zeros in SOG recon teams, plus more.
__________________
Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery? http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-jo...r1s-b-s-t.html |
02-06-2010, 10:28 PM | #11360 |
I.O. SpecOps
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a secret underground bunker.
Posts: 4,404
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Quote:
The way I see it, it sort of like the same reason the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force all want to have their own Tier 1 CT units... they want to be able to deal with these situations without outside help, and with less "red tape" from a chain of command. The President and SecDef would want the same capability if they were dealing with a group of Terrorists that were so entrenched into America. They would need an elite, Quick Reaction, Tier One Counter Terrorist Unit to deploy as need be, and they would need it to not fall into any particular branch of the military to avoid the legal complications of deploying to U.S. soil.
The Army appears to use the 10th Mountain and 82nd Airborne. The Air Force splits their guys(PJ's, CCT's,Combat Weathermen) between SOCOM and the regular Air Force. The Marines have upgraded their recon battalions. I'm nt sure what the Navy is doing.
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Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery? http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-jo...r1s-b-s-t.html |
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