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01-19-2010, 08:34 AM | #11111 |
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Last edited by zuludelta; 01-19-2010 at 09:14 AM.. Reason: edited for spelling and punctuation |
01-19-2010, 09:01 AM | #11112 |
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One thing I think that needs to be studied and emulated in Afghanistan is how General Douglas MacArthur managed the occupation of Japan after the Second World War. He was able to help transform one of the primary Axis powers into America's most powerful ally in East Asia in relatively short order and with virtually no post-war resistance, and he did that largely by respecting Japanese traditions, even when they clashed with normative "Western" values (shielding the emperor from war crimes prosecution, for one thing), all whilst bringing education to the rural population and breaking down barriers that used to exist along the old feudalistic lines. His is the classic example of how to win hearts and minds.
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01-19-2010, 09:37 AM | #11113 |
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I'll respectfully disagree with the contention that opium and its derivatives are intrinsically highly addictive (gasp!). It's a commonly-held myth (cocaine isn't intrinsically highly addictive either). A lot of the talk about people "getting hooked" on smack or crack with just one hit is either deliberate misinformation and fear-mongering or a well-meaning but misguided echoing of societal beliefs that have no grounding in pharmacological science. I had the privilege of studying psychopharmacology under the late Dr. Barry Beyerstein (of Rat Park fame) and he'd always talk about how most (but not all) opiate addiction in mammals is the result of a conglomeration of factors, most significantly poor living conditions, pre-existing behavioural disorders, and inadequate coping mechanisms, because there's nothing in the chemical and physical structure of naturally occurring opiates and similar alkaloids that should make them any more addictive than any other recreational drug like, say, alcohol: Not everybody who drinks alcohol becomes an alcoholic (in fact, the overwhelming majority of people who drink alcohol are responsible drinkers) and the ones who fall into alcoholism almost always have a diagnosed or undiagnosed underlying mental illness (such as depression or bipolar disorder) or are pushed into maladaptive drinking behaviour because of their poor living conditions and their inability to cope with them. By the same token, the type of person who would go above and beyond the legal highs afforded by alcohol (and marijuana, if you live in a place where it's de-criminalised) is likely to already be a compromised individual behaviourally, and would be addicted to any other substance or activity that tickles their brain's pleasure centers, whether it's opium, cocaine, chocolate, sex, or little plastic soldiers . Yeah I probably said that wrong. Because I doubt if everyone who takes any drug is automatically addicted. Drug addicts worldwide may only be 5% of the total population. But there are enough of those who do become addicted, which can be viewed as a problem. Although I doubt it is anything close to 18th century China which I would say was more of an epidemic. But I'm just picking your brain Zulu. I became a little more curious based on what my guide at the musuem was saying. Russians sort of like all or nothing. Eradicating all the drugs in one country could probably only be done under severe repression. |
01-19-2010, 09:48 AM | #11114 |
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One thing I think that needs to be studied and emulated in Afghanistan is how General Douglas MacArthur managed the occupation of Japan after the Second World War. He was able to help transform one of the primary Axis powers into America's most powerful ally in East Asia in relatively short order and with virtually no post-war resistance, and he did that largely by respecting Japanese traditions, even when they clashed with normative "Western" values (shielding the emperor from war crimes prosecution, for one thing), all whilst bringing education to the rural population and breaking down barriers that used to exist along the old feudalistic lines. His is the classic example of how to win hearts and minds.
Last edited by Loose Cannon; 01-19-2010 at 09:51 AM.. |
01-19-2010, 10:07 AM | #11115 |
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Yeah I wonder if they're looking at that at all? Because Japan reconstruction seemed to work out real nice. Although Japan was a country based on good rules of law. Afghanistan is like the wild west meets Conan the Barbarian. Plus the abysmal education level and total lack of any kind of infrastructure makes them hard to help. They need help on every level. They got their work cut out for them. I know the Russians can't wait to be like, "I told you so."
If the Soviet Union's failed invasion of Afghanistan during the 1980s taught us anything, it's that brute force and a show of military might isn't going to bend the will of the Afghanis who are hostile to the occupiers. It's a hard land populated by hard men who've been successfully repelling occupiers and invaders for centuries. If the combined unrestrained might of the Soviet Armed Forces (the largest in the world at the time) couldn't get the mujahs and their supporters to capitulate, I can't see ISAF succeeding where the Soviets failed. I keep thinking that the solution lies in successfully educating those in the rural areas up to a level where serious and impactful discourse can happen, as ignorance and a distrust of rationality is usually the first step towards religious fanaticism. Of course, education and the introduction of new ideas should be tempered with respect for cultural norms (but not to the extent that it undermines the goal of getting the local population to decide for themselves that siding with the mujahs isn't in their best interests as a member of the global community). I'm not going to try and second-guess ISAF, though. I'm sure they already have a lot of Civil Affairs people on the ground, but ensuring that they are safe and secure enough to do their jobs is probably a tall order. Last edited by zuludelta; 01-19-2010 at 10:11 AM.. |
01-19-2010, 12:24 PM | #11116 |
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One thing I think that needs to be studied and emulated in Afghanistan is how General Douglas MacArthur managed the occupation of Japan after the Second World War. He was able to help transform one of the primary Axis powers into America's most powerful ally in East Asia in relatively short order and with virtually no post-war resistance, and he did that largely by respecting Japanese traditions, even when they clashed with normative "Western" values (shielding the emperor from war crimes prosecution, for one thing), all whilst bringing education to the rural population and breaking down barriers that used to exist along the old feudalistic lines. His is the classic example of how to win hearts and minds.
The success in Japan was based on Japanese culture. The Japanese have a strong desire to be a productive member of society. The Japanese soldiers rarely surrendered, but when they did, they know they couldn't go back to their units because they shamed themselves. Because of this, the Japanese would immediately start helping the Americans in an effort to fit into their new environment. It was this cultural trait that lead to the success of post-war Japan. The people of Afghanistan couldn't be more different, as they resist outside influence. The idea of educating the people as a solution, is a very western idea. It's this kind of western thinking that makes us unable to find solutions that work in Afghanistan. It is us that need educating, not the sheep herders of Afghanistan. Sorry to jump into this thread like this, but just thought I'd throw my .02 in. |
01-19-2010, 03:10 PM | #11117 |
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All well thought out views are welcome. The fact that Zulu brought up Japan makes me suspect he knows more about it than I could ever even dream. I'm looking forward to the history lesson.
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01-19-2010, 05:39 PM | #11118 |
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The success in Japan was based on Japanese culture. The Japanese have a strong desire to be a productive member of society...
... Because of this, the Japanese would immediately start helping the Americans in an effort to fit into their new environment. ... Afghanistan couldn't be more different, as they resist outside influence. The idea of educating the people as a solution, is a very western idea. It's this kind of western thinking that makes us unable to find solutions that work in Afghanistan. It is us that need educating, not the sheep herders of Afghanistan. If you look at the 20th century progression of many Western-hostile nations-turned-allies, it's generally followed that scheme, whether the industrialised society norms and consumerist/materialistic values are introduced from external sources (such as in the case of post-war Japan*) or whether the move towards expanded industrialisation and consumerism is an indigenous movement (as in the case of countries like China and Libya). Oh, and yeah, welcome to the thread! *- Yes, urban Japan was already a heavily consumerist and industrialised area as early as the late 19th century, but MacArthur's genius was in extending that towards the rural population whilst performing a delicate political balancing act, playing the role of the benevolent and magnanimous conqueror on the one hand and ensuring that the emperor was retained as a ceremonial, almost infallible, symbol of the nation on the other. Last edited by zuludelta; 01-19-2010 at 05:44 PM.. |
01-19-2010, 06:33 PM | #11119 |
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How the Afghans should be educated is up to debate no doubt. I'm not saying drop TVs and set the stations to MTV and Hannah Montana. Nor am I thinking that Yay everyone can read its going to get better overnight. But the literacy rate is like 11%. Some education has to help.
Women in that society have no voice or say whatsoever, and they probably never will. I bet that is the one thing the coalition forces don't mess with. Still It has to suck to be a woman in Afghanistan. But maybe they like it like that, especially since they don't know any better. Afghanistan is one of those countries that doesn't fit into the global economy. Their only source of income is poppy production that feeds the rest of the world's herion addiction. Sure they've done that for centuries but it doesn't make it right. They need a new crop. |
01-19-2010, 06:40 PM | #11120 |
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Thinking about Japan reconstruction, was there any American/British corporations that set up shop and helped (By which I mean profitted) with reconstruction?
Coincidently until recently the oldest existing company in the world was Kongō Gumi Co., Ltd in Japan. They are/were a construction company specializing in religious buildings. They opened for business in the year 578 A.D. Last edited by Loose Cannon; 01-19-2010 at 06:52 PM.. |
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