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11-13-2007, 12:54 PM | #21 |
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Questions:
- What's Commander's opinion of this? Why did he choose that particular auction for us to pay attention to? - Are there any other members here on Hisstank that have heard discussion on this elsewhere? I'd like to see more multi-sourced info. - Who defines potentially ambiguous terms such as "bootleg", "knockoff", and "variant"? - Can we have name, date, and paperwork provenance from the manufacturer please? - How did they get ahold of the original tools in order to re-tool them to begin with? - What is the line drawn at a "slightly retooled" figure, especially when: a.) The POA is reduced from 10 pts of articulation all the way down to 5. b.) There is no O-ring. c.) And there is no ball-joint head despite the fact that retooling the original Joe head would actually cost more when it would be far cheaper to leave the head alone and glue the torso around it. - Are there even any pictures of carded examples? - Why were English names chosen for these auctions and not their Polish names like all the other foreign variants? Biofera anyone? - How can we more effectively inform the buyer so that he/she can make their own buying decisions on these items without having to rely on the same handful of consultants? - Why the comparison to the Euro CGI? According to YoJoe, that's been a valid foreign variant for years. -PJ |
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11-13-2007, 01:10 PM | #22 |
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Location: M.A.R.S. EVERGLADES ARMORY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
Questions:
- What's Commander's opinion of this? Why did he choose that particular auction for us to pay attention to? I think the Commander was pointing out that the Stalker figure was labeled as "Yellow Variant Stalker Bootleg", which is, in all respects, misleading to your "every day Joe collector" who's looking for a 25th anniversary miscolored Stalker figure. Quote:
- Are there any other members here on Hisstank that have heard discussion on this elsewhere? I'd like to see more multi-sourced info.
Quote:
- Who defines potentially ambiguous terms such as "bootleg", "knockoff", and "variant"?
We do, actually. The community as a whole. For instance, let's look at the 25th line, Stalker in general. The "yellow stalker" isn't yellow, he's green. His camo pattern is/was inverted. As such, a running change took place at the factory to ensure that Stalker was produced "true to form". I would call this a running change to rectify a QC issue. That being said, it's considered a "variant" within our community. Does that make it right/wrong? Who knows, who cares. ;) Quote:
- Can we have name, date, and paperwork provenance from the manufacturer please?
Quote:
- How did they get ahold of the original tools in order to re-tool them to begin with?
Thank God, too, as when I lived in Italy I would've been lost without my Joes and PowerMaster Prime :cool: Quote:
- What is the line drawn at a "slightly retooled" figure, especially when:
a.) The POA is reduced from 10 pts of articulation all the way down to 5. b.) There is no O-ring. c.) And there is no ball-joint head despite the fact that retooling the original Joe head would actually cost more when it would be far cheaper to leave the head alone and glue the torso around it. Quote:
- Are there even any pictures of carded examples? If there were/are, I'm sure they're a devil to come by. As mentioned earlier, these pieces are stated to be UBER RARE, so that would make cards even more harder to come by, no? Quote:
- Why were English names chosen for these auctions and not their Polish names like all the other foreign variants? Biofera anyone?
Quote:
- How can we more effectively inform the buyer so that he/she can make their own buying decisions on these items without having to rely on the same handful of consultants?
Was I alive in 1941? No. Do I believe the words of others that have done history on the era? Of course. I have no reason to doubt them. Quote:
- Why the comparison to the Euro CGI? According to YoJoe, that's been a valid foreign variant for years. -PJ Effective marketing by the seller in question. He's trying to draw relations between two rare figures. Since the Euro CGI is well known and obviously UBER rare, the seller, IMO, is trying to explain to potential buyers that the figures and/or figures are just as rare...so rare, in fact, that many of us had never heard of them before this thread. |
11-13-2007, 01:10 PM | #23 |
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- Why doesn't Rock & Roll's face color match the rest of his body? The Stalker has matching extremities and head, but not R&R.
- How can we possibly verify that these are the correct accessories for even these figures? - If no more than 10 collectors own these rare figures, then how many actually do and where did they get them from? Not the same source I hope. - Which tooling design standard defines any foreign Joes? Vintage Star Wars? From a bootleg factory in Poland? And these are based on late '80s figures at that. - Just because they're 3&3/4" tall makes them close enough to the real GIJoe line, this qualifies them into a historical archive like JoeIntel? Well then why not open the floodgates and archive all the bootlegs while we're at it, and not just the Polish ones? Why not start on the hard stuff first, like say, Chinese bootlegs with 5 pt. articulation? - PJ |
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11-13-2007, 01:18 PM | #24 |
SurveillancePort.com
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- Why doesn't Rock & Roll's face color match the rest of his body? The Stalker has matching extremities and head, but not R&R.
Quote:
- How can we possibly verify that these are the correct accessories for even these figures?
Unfortuantely, I don't think anyone can. As they're bootlegs, I'm sure that 10 Polish Stalker figures came with 10 different accessories....hense the term "bootleg". Quote:
- If no more than 10 collectors own these rare figures, then how many actually do and where did they get them from? Not the same source I hope. Well, seeing as how those 10 collectors have done far more research on the topic that any one of us, all I can do is take their word for it. Does that mean I'm going to hop on the bandwagon & buy any Polish Bootlegs? Not at all. Quote:
- Which tooling design standard defines any foreign Joes? Vintage Star Wars? From a bootleg factory in Poland? And these are based on late '80s figures at that.
Quote:
- Just because they're 3&3/4" tall makes them close enough to the real GIJoe line, this qualifies them into a historical archive like JoeIntel? Well then why not open the floodgates and archive all the bootlegs while we're at it, and not just the Polish ones? Why not start on the hard stuff first, like say, Chinese bootlegs with 5 pt. articulation?
- PJ There was a post made earlier indicating that an article is soon on the way about this very topic. So IMO, the info is there, just not readily available as of yet . Know what though?..even though I now know that there are polish bootlegs, I still don't feel the desire to look up an info in relation to them. I'll leave that up to the guys who like doing such things, and then study their research. If I feel something is wrong and/or false, until I can prove otherwise, it's not my place to state otherwise. |
11-13-2007, 01:19 PM | #25 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.I.A.D.
Easy. The open market. Anyone in Europe, or anywhere in the world for that matter, can/could get their hands on toys that were produced here in the U.S.
a.) The tools traveled all over Europe starting with the Euro CGI, then went to Poland in 2000, then came back undamaged to the states for the Python set??? :confused::confused::confused: What about the Night Creeper torso? b.) They made their own tools using the Euro Joes floating around at the time. The rest is Occam's razor at this point. Quote:
Thank God, too, as when I lived in Italy I would've been lost without my Joes and PowerMaster Prime :cool:
-PJ |
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11-13-2007, 01:25 PM | #26 |
SurveillancePort.com
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
b.) They made their own tools using the Euro Joes floating around at the time.
Quote:
How many bootlegs did you see while you were there? Where were they sold?
-PJ |
11-13-2007, 01:29 PM | #27 |
Zolnierze Podrobki
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
Questions:
- What's Commander's opinion of this? Why did he choose that particular auction for us to pay attention to? Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- Are there any other members here on Hisstank that have heard discussion on this elsewhere? I'd like to see more multi-sourced info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- Who defines potentially ambiguous terms such as "bootleg", "knockoff", and "variant"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- Can we have name, date, and paperwork provenance from the manufacturer please?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- How did they get ahold of the original tools in order to re-tool them to begin with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- What is the line drawn at a "slightly retooled" figure, especially when:
a.) The POA is reduced from 10 pts of articulation all the way down to 5. b.) There is no O-ring. c.) And there is no ball-joint head despite the fact that retooling the original Joe head would actually cost more when it would be far cheaper to leave the head alone and glue the torso around it. Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- Are there even any pictures of carded examples?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- Why were English names chosen for these auctions and not their Polish names like all the other foreign variants? Biofera anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- Why the comparison to the Euro CGI? According to YoJoe, that's been a valid foreign variant for years.
__________________
Author: The Force in the Flesh: Star Wars Inspired Body Art www.theforceintheflesh.com Last edited by Shane Turgeon; 11-13-2007 at 01:39 PM.. |
11-13-2007, 01:36 PM | #28 |
Misanthrope
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26
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I don't have time to go point by point right now but a few.
There were only a handful of parts used; heads, arms, legs, torsos, etc. They can be found mixed and matched so possibilities are endless. Colors are irrelevant. They came in many colors and were just cobbled together. Weapons, I touched on that already but once again any weapon could come with any figure since I showed carded SW with mismatched weapons and a Vader that came with a Joe sword. Tooling, they made there own. The SW ones were made by the company that went bankrupt and the Joe ones were made by the company that bought the SW. It's easy enough to do. You pull a hardcopy from a mold of a licensed figure. You tweek the HC and make steel molds. Once done production begins. John
__________________
John J. Alvarez Editor http://www.theswca.com "There's no justice, there's just us" -Agnostic Front NYHC |
11-13-2007, 01:37 PM | #29 |
Zolnierze Podrobki
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- Why doesn't Rock & Roll's face color match the rest of his body? The Stalker has matching extremities and head, but not R&R.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- How can we possibly verify that these are the correct accessories for even these figures?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- If no more than 10 collectors own these rare figures, then how many actually do and where did they get them from? Not the same source I hope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwanjacoby
- Just because they're 3&3/4" tall makes them close enough to the real GIJoe line, this qualifies them into a historical archive like JoeIntel? Well then why not open the floodgates and archive all the bootlegs while we're at it, and not just the Polish ones? Why not start on the hard stuff first, like say, Chinese bootlegs with 5 pt. articulation?
__________________
Author: The Force in the Flesh: Star Wars Inspired Body Art www.theforceintheflesh.com Last edited by C.I.A.D.; 11-13-2007 at 01:39 PM.. |
11-13-2007, 01:46 PM | #30 |
Awake and Alive
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Delaware
Posts: 831
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I don't know what happen to the orginal post. I keep getting email updates, but when I click on the link it says I don't have permission to view the post.:confused:
Anyway I do confess that at first I thought it was a BS auction. So thanks Tripwire201 and Shane Turgeon for educating me on this. It is very interesting, but nothing I would collect. If I ever have a question about bootlegs I know who to see. |
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