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07-18-2022, 12:09 PM | #21 |
Grail Knight
Join Date: Feb 2021
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Yeah, I could see her being able to utilize technique to get him off his feet, but to ring his bell to the point where he doesn't know where he is silly, but then you see this all the time in comics/movies/tv shows, where much smaller protagonists (male OR female) beat the tar out of much larger opponents.
See, that's kind of my point, though. I'm not super knowledgeable about Bruce Lee's filmography, but his characters usually demonstrate skills or smarts, instead of just dialogue telling you he's super, right? Show the smarts or skills that allow the smaller character to overcome an extreme disadvantage. It allows both characters to appear their best, strengthening both instead of undermining them like the comic page does. As it is, all we get is Scarlett bragging about beating up Steeler with little apparent effort. This makes GI Joe look like they're hiring chumps, and makes Scarlett look like a bragging, self absorbed obnoxious jerk. It demeans both characters. Quote:
This here is the real story, behind the scenes, of how the cartoons were laid out. Remember, the cartoons were basically 30 min commercials for the toys. There's even a sense in which the comic books were printed commercials for the toys because Hama has mentioned that he would get calls from Hasbro from time to time saying, "You need to spotlight" characters X, Y, & Z or a particular vehicle(s).
Also, in the 1980s, you had sort of 3 different Joe Universes going on at the same time: File Cards, Comics, & Cartoons, and oftentimes there was not any consistency between the 3. When the first cartoon mini-series was introduced in 1983, I'm sure Hasbro was already aware that they were discontinuing the MMS/Hawk, which is why he didn't show up in the cartoons. However, since Hawk was the established leader in the comic and continued to be strongly portrayed in the comics, this was probably what led to the 1986 "Gen. Hawk" figure. Agree that the filecards are kinda their own universe. They're great. Honestly, I think they're Hama's best work on GI Joe. I could be remembering wrong, but I think I've seen a picture of an early script or storyboard of one of the MASS Device scenes where Duke's role is labeled Hawk. That may just be my memory playing tricks, though. TBH, I never really understood why people like comics Hawk, either. (I like Hawk, but that's because I had the awesome 1986 figure growing up.) He's kind of a jerk, and kind of a sketchy leader. In issue #6 & #7 he sends his guys off as decoys, without letting them know they're just decoys. Why? To keep the reader in suspense, and so that the rest of the plot can unfold accordingly. He then proceeds to call Cobra and turn an already dangerous mission into a suicide mission. Would probably have been useful for the Joes on the mission to know about that. Then, in Issues #16 and #17, he wears a bulletproof vest, and the implication is that he doesn't supply his troops with them. Nice guy. Maybe he's part of Snake-Eyes' evil conspiracy to rule. Which would make him a ninja, too. Last edited by SnowCat; 07-18-2022 at 12:19 PM.. |
07-18-2022, 04:12 PM | #22 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,030
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I resented (resent?) Duke simply because he seemed like a generic Hawk knock-off. In the cartoon, I was always wondering where Hawk was and why this clown was trying to take the place of Stalker.
Further exacerbating that was that Hama did not seem to like Duke or portray him well. I think he used Duke in a similar fashion to how medieval authors dealt with Lancelot (this may be an opposite contrast rather than a parallel. I am not a morning person, and most of my brainpower is being devoted to avoiding apostrophes right now). Anyway, if a mission had to fail (Cobra Commander gets rescued, the Joes fail to kick Cobra off a newly created Cobra Island, the Pitt gets invaded), Duke would be in charge. I have no problem with Scarlett knocking Steeler around. Just because he is heavier and stronger does not mean he can fight. She was established as a great hand-to-hand fighter due to her past martial arts background. It was like the Boba Fett Holiday Special experience of introducing a new character without any warning, which has made me like Duke as a character and action figure, especially the classic 83/84 look. Jason |
07-18-2022, 04:18 PM | #23 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 6,169
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Duke has always been the Joe leader for me. He was the leader on the show during the time when it was watchable. I had the figure.
I guess Hawk in the comic made some fans, but on the cartoon, he was terrible. Bad voice. Bad episodes. Associated with the even worse Sgt. Slaughter (who literally yells every line). Came in at the same time as the hated Serpentor, when they minimized the role of Cobra Commander. Give me Duke any time and every time over those clowns. It also doesn't hurt that Duke episodes tended to feature Scarlett, who is my favorite Joe. I do like Flint, but not as much as Duke.
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07-18-2022, 04:29 PM | #24 |
He/Him
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Nowhere, Everywhere
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What was wrong with Hawk's voice in the cartoon lol? I thought it was perfect.
FWIW in the comics, I am pretty sure Duke calls Falcon "sir" in #108 or 109 (the one where the Joes get killed). |
07-18-2022, 08:11 PM | #25 |
Megalomaniac
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Forest Grove, PA
Posts: 539
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07-19-2022, 02:12 AM | #26 |
Porkchop Sandwiches!
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 806
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The cartoons had the opposite affect on me. I've mentioned this many times on different threads, but as a kid in the 4th Grade, I was not a member of the Fan Club (neither were most of my friends), so we didn't have a heads up about Duke or the cartoon. One day, we just saw that there was a GIJoe cartoon miniseries and there was the new leader named Duke.
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Duke has always been the Joe leader for me. He was the leader on the show during the time when it was watchable. I had the figure.
I guess Hawk in the comic made some fans, but on the cartoon, he was terrible. Bad voice. Bad episodes. Associated with the even worse Sgt. Slaughter (who literally yells every line). Came in at the same time as the hated Serpentor, when they minimized the role of Cobra Commander. It's funny how in so many ways, our preferences and perceptions as adults are still so heavily influenced by what was imprinted on us as kids. Duke was the leader when I was eight, and even though I now understand there were a dozen or two Joes who outranked him, he still is in my head canon. Last edited by YouNotCookin; 07-19-2022 at 10:55 AM.. |
07-19-2022, 08:06 PM | #27 |
Cobra Soldier
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 43
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This line right here is pretty much the perfect way to summarize my point:
"To a certain extent, Flint and Duke were almost interchangeable" - https://gijoe.fandom.com/wiki/Flint_(RAH) That's not something that you would typically say about a second command in an action cartoon. Take G.I. Joe's sister series Tranformers. There isn't anyone that you would describe as "interchangable" with Optimus Prime during that show's first 65 episodes. |
07-19-2022, 08:15 PM | #28 |
Hisstank.Com General
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: VA
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Except no one could give Optimus Prime orders. Flint takes orders from Duke. They appear together in a lot of episodes and Duke is clearly in command.
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07-19-2022, 08:20 PM | #29 |
Just a fan
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07-19-2022, 11:37 PM | #30 |
stretching your O-ring
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Tomball, Texas
Posts: 2,877
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Hawk was a latecomer in 1986, but his sturdy demeanor in "Sink the Montana" made him my instant favorite Joe next to Shipwreck. I think it was where he had to make the call between friendship and duty that really got me. Coming from a kid that pretty much exclusively was asking for Cobras up to that point, that's saying a lot.
By the time the DIC era came around, my brother and I had both of his iterations (jet pack and talking battle commander) and were happy to see him in the lead. Personally I don't think Duke and Flint were interchangable. Duke was designed from day one as a poster boy. He made some really bad decisions in the field in the cartoon, and early on was just a jargon generator, i.e. "He's in command because he says all the military words." Meanwhile, Flint's writing just had him make less mistakes, and the situations where he had to make decisions were more clear than the earlier stuff Duke was a part of. I think near the end of his run, Duke was supposed to be portrayed as being out of touch as a way of giving him additional depth, but the poster boy dialog problem really plagued him all the way to the end. |
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