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12-23-2009, 01:33 PM | #101 |
Cobra Soldier
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Windsor Ontario Canada
Posts: 88
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Quote:
After several years on SW message boards, I grew sick and tired of folks who thought they knew Star Wars better than the creator. You don't, no matter how many times you re-enacted the battle of Endor in your back yard.
I understand if you didn't like the film(s), you can complain all day that it didn't do this or that. But that's all personal opinion. You can't tell Stephen King what should have happened at the end of the Dark Tower. You can't tell JK Rowling to change the middle part of the Half Blood Prince, and you can't tell Lucas that he shouldn't have finished his own story. It's not your tale to tell, it's his. Rant over... for now. |
12-23-2009, 01:34 PM | #102 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia
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The consensus of my friends has been this: the Phantom Menace accomplished nothing except making a lot of money for Lucas. You could easily pick up the story from half way through AoC, and combine it with RoS, and had one amazing movie - or expand the story of the Clone Wars out more, allow the love story to be more expansive, and therefore have a more emotional conclusion. But the Phantom Menace really never moved the story forward at all. It introduced a few characters in such a flimsy way that it was useless.
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12-23-2009, 01:40 PM | #103 |
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I guess he's trying to be funny, but I could not stand the guys voive for more than a minute....it's a shame...cuz I agree with everything he said so far.
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12-23-2009, 01:45 PM | #104 |
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The girl in the basement was a little too creepy. I got the joke, but when the camera jerked towards her at the end, it stopped being funny.
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12-23-2009, 01:50 PM | #105 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Monrovia, CA
Posts: 12,065
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Quote:
Lucas changed the story from the elements he originally presented in the OT, which led to the disappointments. the fact that the audience remembers the original story isn't a criticism of the audience because they are disappointed it was changed, and it is completely dishonest for Star Wars apologists to ignore fact and attempt to claim it wasn't changed just to defend Lucas' right to do as he pleases. nobody is criticizing such, he can change the story all he wants, and he did. how that becomes a criticism of the audience is ridiculous. |
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12-23-2009, 01:57 PM | #106 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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nope, not the same. A work isn't finished until it is published. Changing a story as you write it isn't retconning, it is the process of writing. Once it is published, that's the final product. Changing the story after it has been told in future volumes is retconning. Big difference between the two.
It isn't even a mistake, it was the original story. Lucas spent years writing the original star wars, esb and rotj, so that slip wasn't a mistake in rotj, it was his original idea, that he then didn't follow when making the prequels, one of many examples, which is why people's disappointment in those stories isn't because they know the story more than the creator, which is claimed by a lot of apologists (which has nothing to do with liking the movies, as you said) but because we simply remember the story as it was told originally and the newer versions contradict it. Lucas changed the story from the elements he originally presented in the ot, which led to the disappointments. The fact that the audience remembers the original story isn't a criticism of the audience because they are disappointed it was changed, and it is completely dishonest for star wars apologists to ignore fact and attempt to claim it wasn't changed just to defend lucas' right to do as he pleases. Nobody is criticizing such, he can change the story all he wants, and he did. How that becomes a criticism of the audience is ridiculous. ding ding ding we have a winnah!!
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12-23-2009, 02:17 PM | #107 |
Gunslinger
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MidWorld
Posts: 38,081
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nope, not the same. a work isn't finished until it is published. changing a story as you write it isn't retconning, it is the process of writing. once it is published, that's the final product. changing the story after it has been told in future volumes is retconning. big difference between the two.
Attack me on a poor choice of words, but it doesn't affect the results. Quote:
it isn't even a mistake, it was the original story. Lucas spent years writing the original Star Wars, ESB and ROTJ, so that slip wasn't a mistake in ROTJ, it was his original idea, that he then didn't follow when making the prequels, one of many examples, which is why people's disappointment in those stories isn't because they know the story more than the creator, which is claimed by a lot of apologists (which has nothing to do with liking the movies, as you said) but because we simply remember the story as it was told originally and the newer versions contradict it.
Lucas changed the story from the elements he originally presented in the OT, which led to the disappointments. the fact that the audience remembers the original story isn't a criticism of the audience because they are disappointed it was changed, and it is completely dishonest for Star Wars apologists to ignore fact and attempt to claim it wasn't changed just to defend Lucas' right to do as he pleases. nobody is criticizing such, he can change the story all he wants, and he did. how that becomes a criticism of the audience is ridiculous. I'm not criticizing anyone for not liking the changes or the explanations that came after the fact. I don't like them all myself, but it's not enough to make me dislike the films as I know the same thing happened the first time around. One item that annoyed me to no end is the line: "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" when Obi-wan gave Luke his father's lightsaber. An iconic moment. When filming Revenge of the Sith Lucas completely forgot this and it was Ewan McGregor who reminded him and suggested the scene where he quickly picks it up following his battle with Darth Vader.
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12-23-2009, 02:27 PM | #108 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
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The problem is that Lucas forgot ALOT when he went back and did the prequels. It was like he didn't even watch the OT to refresh his memory, or didn't care.
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12-23-2009, 02:29 PM | #109 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,157
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it isn't even a mistake, it was the original story. Lucas spent years writing the original Star Wars, ESB and ROTJ, so that slip wasn't a mistake in ROTJ, it was his original idea, that he then didn't follow when making the prequels, one of many examples, which is why people's disappointment in those stories isn't because they know the story more than the creator, which is claimed by a lot of apologists (which has nothing to do with liking the movies, as you said) but because we simply remember the story as it was told originally and the newer versions contradict it.
Lucas changed the story from the elements he originally presented in the OT, which led to the disappointments. the fact that the audience remembers the original story isn't a criticism of the audience because they are disappointed it was changed, and it is completely dishonest for Star Wars apologists to ignore fact and attempt to claim it wasn't changed just to defend Lucas' right to do as he pleases. nobody is criticizing such, he can change the story all he wants, and he did. how that becomes a criticism of the audience is ridiculous. |
12-23-2009, 02:37 PM | #110 |
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Monrovia, CA
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Again we're working with personal opinions on what is or is not a finished product. Again I point to Stephen King who finished the Dark Tower which was published and released in seven books over 30 years and then went back to re-write the first book to make it better fit the rest. I personally prefer the original version of the Gunslinger, but King had every right to go back just as Lucas did. Just as Tolkien went back and altered the Hobbit a bit to better fit the Lord of the Rings.
Attack me on a poor choice of words, but it doesn't affect the results. and by your own language, Stephen King changed The Gunslinger to make it better. CHANGED it. great. we agree, it was changed, thus there had to be an original version. that's what we are talking about with Star Wars -- that there was an original story established in the OT that was changed by the telling of the prequels, just like King did with his series. same thing. by your logic, nothing can ever be a completed story if someone goes back and changes it, that change could just be the original story, despite the inherent flaw in that reasoning -- the change is the original. how does that work? does a story become unfinished despite its release irregardless of whether it is ever changed, or only becomes an unfinished story when it is actually changed? that concept is ludicrous. by that logic, no movie ever made or book ever written is actually a completed self contained story because the creator reserves the right to change it in the future, thus we should all simply enjoy them with a grain of salt and no element of the story is ever set in stone. perhaps Darth Vader didn't even die at the end of ROTJ, because Lucas may change it years from now and have Luke strike down the emperor and rule the universe with Vader when he becomes and angry 80 year old and wants Star Wars to now reflect that interest of his. I guess it is our faults because we assume Luke didn't do so despite the fact that we actually saw it, because it might be changed later on. yeah, that seems reasonable. that's the logical repercussion of the idea you are promoting. Quote:
Another myth is that Lucas wrote out the entire Original Trilogy and stuck to it verbatim. Not true at all. He wrote Star Wars and outlined a bit of back story that ultimately became the PT. He then realized the story he wrote was too long and hacked the story in half, hoping to one day pick up on elements he had to cut. Empire was almost entirely made up, Return of the Jedi less so as the ending battle with the Death Star was there all along and really just a re-hash of what he put in the first film. Vader was not always Luke's father, Leia was not always the other Skywalker, and it wasn't until the third film that Lucas decided this was the story of Anakin Skywalker's redemption. Rumor has it that this is what pissed Gary Kurtz off.
I'm not criticizing anyone for not liking the changes or the explanations that came after the fact. I don't like them all myself, but it's not enough to make me dislike the films as I know the same thing happened the first time around. One item that annoyed me to no end is the line: "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" when Obi-wan gave Luke his father's lightsaber. An iconic moment. When filming Revenge of the Sith Lucas completely forgot this and it was Ewan McGregor who reminded him and suggested the scene where he quickly picks it up following his battle with Darth Vader. Last edited by gunslingercbr; 12-23-2009 at 02:40 PM.. |
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