|05-18-2009, 08:10 AM||#151|
Join Date: Sep 2007
I've had this happen before to me, but not on this level...
I really enjoyed the film... but I can't overlook its COLOSSAL PLOT HOLES. As much as I try to love this film... I just can't.
The pace is perfect. The first half hour is flawless. The characters are rich, the performances great. AND, above all, virility's back in Trek. This was a return to the true "space adventure" genre.
Now, that being said... oh my, it was like a rollercoaster of plot holes. I'm not talking about canon issues here, AT ALL. I'm talking about old school plot holes. For fuck's sake, these writers actually get PAID!
I can overlook one. Two. Three big plot holes? But this was... geez. I'm sure you folks discussed some of them in this thread (haven't read through it). Nero's ridiculous vendetta (and 20 years of waiting) is just the tip of the iceberg. this was BAD scriptwriting fellas... don't let J.J's great pacing fool you.
As much as Star Trek's about "boldly going where no man has gone before", I don't have a problem with the fact that this film didn't really deal with space exploration at all. HOWEVER... they didn't even have the courtesy to explain what Starfleet or the Federation is (there's only a line by Pike concerning this, way out of place). So... all this "it's also for non-fans" talk is nonesense to me. All those scenes revolving around Starfleet Academy and not one hint at what in the blazes it was all about.
SO, I said to myself: OK... what is this film all about, then? What's the core subject? "Destiny", I figured. You're a waste and dude from the future comes and tells ya: you eventually become a great man. Woah, there. But the Funny thing? They didn't even explore this subject matter that much either.
So, in the end, this film ended up being PRECISELY what it shouldn't have been: it was about itself. It was a Star Trek film about Star Trek (the tale of how "it all came to be")... ironically failing to instruct you about what Star Trek is all about, in the first place.
Last edited by Gentleman; 05-18-2009 at 08:12 AM..
|05-18-2009, 09:35 AM||#152|
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Jersey
i'm a life long star trek fan and i remember going to see the wrath of kahn on a day camp trip when i was like 6, and i cried the whole way home after spock died. so for me it's always been about the characters first then the
space and exploring aspect second. the whole "seeking new worlds" part of star trek may have brought me in as a fan but it's kirk and spock that made me love the show. but that's just me.
i agree on nero. there should have been more, and there actually was until it was cut. nero's ship was damaged after the kelvin collided with it. at some point after that nero
is attacked by klingons and is taken prisoner. he spends the next 20 plus years on a
klingon prison planet. the remaining crew that were not captured repair the ship over time, and once complete free nero. uhura mentions this in the movie.
also a part of nero's left ear is bitten off while in prison. you see this change in nero in the later part of the movie. you can see some of this missing footage in the 2nd trailer. in which you see nero taking out 2 klingons.
these scenes should have been left in to add more depth to nero's character. there's more to nero's revenge than what's mention. nero had been working with spock at first in attempt to save his world. unfortunately the technology needed was new vulcan red matter technology. the vulcans were uncomfortable with sharing this with the romulans, and voted against it even though they knew romulas did not have much time. spock assured nero that he would somehow get the vulcan goverment to change it's mind. of coarse while waiting for a new vote romulas was destroyed. and nero's wife and unborn child along with his world were destroyed. i think nero's got a legimate grips here.
he also holds the federation partly responsible because they just sat around and watched and did not take a harder stance against the vulcans on there refusal to help the romulans. the reason nero knew of the original kirk was because he spent some time on the enterprise d(or e?) before everything went down hill. he looked up the ship's history from the memory banks, to pass the time i guess.
old spock didn't get into all of the orignal kirk's glory because he felt kirk shouldn't know. whatever happens..happens, kirk knew enough already and timeline was already all f'd up why add to it. the reason nero didn't get into telling young kirk about the other kirk was because there was not enough time and he was going to kill him anyway.
in the future films i think they'll get into some classic trek exploring themes. i think the filmmaker's intention with this film was to reintroduce the characters and to get us to care about the new versions of kirk and crew which i think they did.
|05-19-2009, 04:41 AM||#153|
Join Date: Sep 2007
Well, that's their problem, ya know? You shouldn't have to read prequel comics or know about deleted scenes.
The way you put it makes the whole Nero business a whole more coherent, sure... but all those details ain't in the flick. And it's not enough if Uhura "mentions" something about the klingons or whatever. That's lazy scriptwriting (like having Kirk, Spock prime and Scotty all in the same ice planet).
And, yes, I agree with you: as much as Trek's core subject is about boldly going where no man has gone before, the human aspect of it, the relationships between the characters, has always been just as central. This is what kept the film together.
First Contact was a Trek film about Trek (the tale of how humans met the Vulcans). Very similar to the new Trek film in that it included time travel and enemies from the future trying to hack the past. HOWEVER... the film trascended this because the theme about First Contact itself was perfectly excecuted and it was the heart of the film. It made it. Despite all their shortcomings and the dark ages upon them, humans still managed to survive and proved they were ready for more. And the guy who makes first contact is a nobody!!! Just some drunken dude who didn't mean it! Brilliant. IN FACT, it is JUST like in JJ's Trek: DESTINY. Dudes from the future come and tell you that you'll be making first contact with aliens. What do you do about it??? Cochrane wanted to RUN FROM IT!!! Shit... I think I'm only now realizing just how solid First Contact was. It also included the theme of vendetta (but on Picard's side)... perfectly excecuted as well. He wanted revenge... but at what cost?
I'm not a purist at all but I think it's gonna be difficult to top Trek II, VI and VIII
Thank you for the civilized debate!
Last edited by Gentleman; 05-19-2009 at 04:44 AM..
|05-26-2009, 09:51 PM||#154|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a secret underground bunker.
Personally, I liked it. I liked that Spock was a rebel (particularly that @$$-kicking young Spock handed out to his bullies). I like that Uhura gets to be a multi-dimensional character. I like that the crew is young enough that they are still learning from their mistakes and are willing to take chances. I'm looking forward to a couple of sequels.
Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?
Last edited by blackrazor1; 05-29-2009 at 10:09 PM..
|05-26-2009, 09:54 PM||#155|
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Bessemer City, NC
I did like the movie, but I did have trouble figuring out why Nero was so pissed at Spock. And why did he kill Kirk's dad?
|05-26-2009, 10:01 PM||#156|
Join Date: May 2008
Kirk's dad was just there at the wrong place and the wrong time. But he died like a man though!
|05-26-2009, 10:16 PM||#157|
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canadian flat lands
There's a lot of little nitpicks regarding the plot. My biggest issue with the movie is the character Kirk didn't seem competent enough to be the Captain of the Enterprise.
It's funny how people make fun of William Shatner's acting abilities, but he played the perfect Kirk. The swashbuckling Captain bucking authority and using unorthodox methods, but you knew in the end he had everything under control. I didn't get this feeling with Chris Pine... it felt like party guy, womanizing dude got to be Captain? Say what?!?
|05-26-2009, 10:35 PM||#158|
Join Date: Jan 2009
I agree with everyone, although I loved that movie.
Biggest plot hole for me, besides whatever black hole or time travel theories may have been betrayed(I really don't know) was that there really had to have been a way to set it up so that old Spock was waiting for Young Kirk, instead of just running into each other on a huge planet.
I definitely agree about this whole prequel comic thing. I shouldn't need these to understand the movie! If I buy it, it could be crap for all I know, plus I prefer to wait for collected versions.
There was a Transformers prequel for the first film, that was decent because it explained bumblebee's arrival on earth and how he located the kid, but it wasn't necessary. Then again, not the most intellectual film.
My favorite aspect of the film is how every member of a large cast playing familiar characters got a chance to shine. Sulu has never been super-important, but he gets a moment to kick ass, while referring to his fencing ability(carrying a robosword seems non-regulation?) Chekov has been a bit of a non-character as far as the overall cast goes, but he got to have a pretty brilliant moment.
I liked the love letter to Trek fans aspect, including even a reference to Bakula's dog, but I can admit that this assumption of familiarity may have conflicted with the film's other goal of being a new introduction to this world.
But, as a movie that did both, I really enjoyed it. The most disappointing part is that I liked the cast, and wish it was it's own series. Wrangling up all these stars who aren't typecast like the original cree is going to be tough for quick sequels.
|05-26-2009, 10:39 PM||#159|
Join Date: May 2008
|05-27-2009, 02:43 PM||#160|
Join Date: Mar 2008
I did like how they showed the more classic style technology abroad the U.S.S. Kelvin as they use classic style communicators and the shuttle craft looked very much like the classic ones
And then 20ish years later we see a progression in technology with the U.S.S. Enterprise
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