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01-06-2008, 02:08 PM | #21 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nacho
I understand your argument, but I disagree. A viper would not 'graduate' to become a blue-shirt.
I agree with Monkeywrench, that blue-shirts move up to become vipers. The cobra trooper filecard also states that they are the most basic bottom-of-the-barrel troops... they don't get armor, helmets, or specialized weapons of a viper. The card states they get minimal training, while Viper's card states that they are 'superbly trained and formidably equipped'. Of course, the beauty is that it's fictional and everyone gets to structure their own cobra army any way they like. However, I think the more conventional way follows what Monkeywrench stated: blue-shirts, then vipers, and then CG or some specialized training. yes, the new Hasbro team did re-do many aspects of G.I. Joe when the line was re-released, and as I said, you can choose to follow the original structure of Cobra or the new structure (or make up your own entirely), but the two are clearly different and cannot be combined -- they are two distinct and different Cobra rank structures. but when discussing the actual structure, not opinion or preference, you have to stick with one or the other, not your own. I can say Major Bludd is the leader of Cobra, but that doesn't make it so when discussing the rank structure of Cobra just because I play that way. also as I said, if you choose the new version, you have to also eliminate Cobra Officers from the Cobra ranks because the new filecards clearly state they are merely Officers in name only that lead the Cobra Troops, whereas the original Cobra Officer is regarded as a much higher ranking operative (an equivalent to an 0-4 in fact) -- again, two different characters entirely, even if they use the same character design. like I said, I prefer the original Cobra structure from the RAH line, which created the mythos, not the new Cobra structure from the brilliant toy lines that were G.I. Joe vs Cobra, Spy Troops and Venom versus Valor. |
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01-06-2008, 02:27 PM | #22 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunslingercbr
not to sound argumentative, but this isn't really a matter you can disagree with, because your or my opinion does not change the original rank structure of Cobra created in the 80's. according to the RAH structure of Cobra, Vipers are clearly defined as the bottom and are where all Cobra's start, and are then apparently promoted from there, and the Cobra Trooper is at the middle of the enlisted equivalent in the Cobra ranks. that's just fact.
yes, the new Hasbro team did re-do many aspects of G.I. Joe when the line was re-released, and as I said, you can choose to follow the original structure of Cobra or the new structure (or make up your own entirely), but the two are clearly different and cannot be combined -- they are two distinct and different Cobra rank structures. but when discussing the actual structure, not opinion or preference, you have to stick with one or the other, not your own. I can say Major Bludd is the leader of Cobra, but that doesn't make it so when discussing the rank structure of Cobra just because I play that way. also as I said, if you choose the new version, you have to also eliminate Cobra Officers from the Cobra ranks because the new filecards clearly state they are merely Officers in name only that lead the Cobra Troops, whereas the original Cobra Officer is regarded as a much higher ranking operative (an equivalent to an 0-4 in fact) -- again, two different characters entirely, even if they use the same character design. like I said, I prefer the original Cobra structure from the RAH line, which created the mythos, not the new Cobra structure from the brilliant toy lines that were G.I. Joe vs Cobra, Spy Troops and Venom versus Valor. What is your definition of the original RAH ranks. To me the FC is the original. They are more important than the comics and toons. Going by the FC logic, are arguments are right or as you stated facts. |
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01-06-2008, 02:53 PM | #23 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek2783
I like to think the blue shirts graduate to Viper status, since Vipers look more battle-ready and tough, but I think it's probably hard to argue gunslingercbr's point about the rankings.
I'm just reading the file cards, and it doesn't make sense that a 'superbly trained and formidably equipped' Viper would advance to become 'the most basic bottom-of-the-barrel soldiers in the Cobra regime.' Again, to each his own, but that's my take. |
01-06-2008, 03:00 PM | #24 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunslingercbr
not to sound argumentative, but this isn't really a matter you can disagree with, because your or my opinion does not change the original rank structure of Cobra created in the 80's. according to the RAH structure of Cobra, Vipers are clearly defined as the bottom and are where all Cobra's start, and are then apparently promoted from there, and the Cobra Trooper is at the middle of the enlisted equivalent in the Cobra ranks. that's just fact.
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01-06-2008, 03:19 PM | #25 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeywrench
What is your definition of the original RAH ranks. To me the FC is the original. They are more important than the comics and toons. Going by the FC logic, are arguments are right or as you stated facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nacho
I don't think we've ever seen anything that states that a viper is lower than E-4 Equiv. (not sure how gunslingercbr came up with that, not a single Viper has ever had a rank designation on the filecard),
if it makes you feel better, ignore the ranks entirely. but you still can't ignore the fact that Vipers are defined as the bottom, thus inherently and undisputedly the lowest rank of Cobras except for BATs (and even defined so in the official Cobra ranking structure by Hasbro during the RAH run, thus lower than Cobra Troopers)so I am not sure what your argument is. Quote:
Originally Posted by nacho
and when E-4 Equiv was put on the original blue-shirt's file card, E-4 was the lowest ranking given to any Joe (and is still the lowest as far as I know). So I don't think that indicates the blue-shirts are higher-ranked than anyone at Cobra.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nacho
I'm just reading the file cards, and it doesn't make sense that a 'superbly trained and formidably equipped' Viper would advance to become 'the most basic bottom-of-the-barrel soldiers in the Cobra regime.'
like I said, create your own structure to adhere to your own vision and preference of Cobra, that is what toys are about. but this thread was asking about something absolute, and the history of G.I. Joe provides the absolute answer to it (unfortunately, there are two different answers, but they are answer nonetheless). |
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01-06-2008, 03:22 PM | #26 |
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Look, the bottom line is that Cobra's hierarchy is somewhat vague. I mean, Destro is often seen as the number 2 guy, but has his own army, where he's the CINC. Baroness started off as the Cobra Intel Officer, then according to the CG file card, they took that function over. Does that mean that Tomax and Xamot outrank Anastasia? Also, if you look at the toon, blueshirts and Vipers coexisted. I think that the blueshirt is the troop of Cobra's army and Viper is what a blueshirt gets promoted to if he chooses to join Cobra's Marines. Make your own rules and follow them
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01-06-2008, 03:30 PM | #27 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSgt Talon
I think that the blueshirt is the troop of Cobra's army and Viper is what a blueshirt gets promoted to if he chooses to join Cobra's Marines. Make your own rules and follow them
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01-06-2008, 03:51 PM | #28 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunslingercbr
I am going by the filecards, and the filecards state a middle rank enlisted equivalent for the Cobra Troopers and clearly state the Vipers as where all Cobra start, thus they are inherently lower than all other Cobra ranks(except machines), including the troopers.
sure, I am simply projecting that onto the ranking structure, but the bottom of any military ranking structure is E1-E3, and Vipers are clearly the bottom of the Cobra ranking structure (and thus can logically be inferred as the equivalent of E1-E-3) and Hasbro was very deliberate in ranking the Cobra Troopers as higher than that, as E-4 equivalents. this is simply inference based on provided information, not something I am making up out of the blue to support my argument. not sure why this is confusing to you. if it makes you feel better, ignore the ranks entirely. but you still can't ignore the fact that Vipers are defined as the bottom, thus inherently and undisputedly the lowest rank of Cobras except for BATs (and even defined so in the official Cobra ranking structure by Hasbro during the RAH run, thus lower than Cobra Troopers)so I am not sure what your argument is. the Joes ranks are irrelevant to this argument, because they are a team of specialized soldiers, not a basic infantry division. just because Joes don't have any E1's through E3's doesn't mean Cobra wouldn't have the equivalent. then don't adhere to the filecards, but because you don't like it doesn't make it so. I am sure Cobra doesn't have an endless flow of new recruits to stick on the basic infantry, so it does make sense that the soldiers you are putting on the front line to fight (and are the most expendable) would be trained and armored. you may not mourn their loss if you are Cobra, but you certainly want to keep them alive. and don't forget, if all Cobra start as Vipers, they take that training with them as well as they move up the ranks, so it isn't as if the higher ranks are trained less. common sense would dictate that as you are promoted and gain more training on top of the Viper training they would inherently be better trained than Vipers. Vipers aren't the most superbly trained, just that they are superbly trained, but that doesn't infer anything about the training about soldiers that are ranked higher. like I said, create your own structure to adhere to your own vision and preference of Cobra, that is what toys are about. but this thread was asking about something absolute, and the history of G.I. Joe provides the absolute answer to it (unfortunately, there are two different answers, but they are answer nonetheless). So while you might believe some of these things to be facts, in reality that is just your opinion, one which you are completely entitled to, but please don't project your opinion on everyone else as 'fact' and talk down to the rest of us. My disagreeing with you doesn't make me 'confused', it means that I don't agree with your version of the 'facts'. Most collectors I know universally consider blue-shirts to be the very bottom. If you disagree, so be it, but your opinion is no more fact than anyone else's. This thread did ask about the 'actual' structure, but I guess from this discussion that even that is up for debate. The 25th file cards only support what I've always believed to be true since '82. That's how my army is structured because it's what I believe to be true, not just some fantasy I made up. Again, your army might be different, but that's clearly based on your interpretation. |
01-06-2008, 08:33 PM | #29 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nacho
I disagree with your basic 'fact' that Vipers are the lowest level. It was put on the card that you had to start as a viper, but that was also a time when hasbro was abandoning the blue-shirts from the toy line and selling new troopers. If you eliminate blue-shirts from your army as hasbro was attempting to do in '86, then Vipers would be the bottom. As a collector from the very beginning who had plenty of both, I've never read anything on the cards, comics or in the cartoon to indicate that blue-shirts rank above ANYONE.
So while you might believe some of these things to be facts, in reality that is just your opinion, one which you are completely entitled to, but please don't project your opinion on everyone else as 'fact' and talk down to the rest of us. My disagreeing with you doesn't make me 'confused', it means that I don't agree with your version of the 'facts'. Most collectors I know universally consider blue-shirts to be the very bottom. If you disagree, so be it, but your opinion is no more fact than anyone else's. This thread did ask about the 'actual' structure, but I guess from this discussion that even that is up for debate. The 25th file cards only support what I've always believed to be true since '82. That's how my army is structured because it's what I believe to be true, not just some fantasy I made up. Again, your army might be different, but that's clearly based on your interpretation. That pretty much sums it up. I couldn't have said it better myself. |
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01-06-2008, 09:41 PM | #30 |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nacho
I disagree with your basic 'fact' that Vipers are the lowest level. It was put on the card that you had to start as a viper, but that was also a time when hasbro was abandoning the blue-shirts from the toy line and selling new troopers. If you eliminate blue-shirts from your army as hasbro was attempting to do in '86, then Vipers would be the bottom. As a collector from the very beginning who had plenty of both, I've never read anything on the cards, comics or in the cartoon to indicate that blue-shirts rank above ANYONE.
So while you might believe some of these things to be facts, in reality that is just your opinion, one which you are completely entitled to, but please don't project your opinion on everyone else as 'fact' and talk down to the rest of us. My disagreeing with you doesn't make me 'confused', it means that I don't agree with your version of the 'facts'. Most collectors I know universally consider blue-shirts to be the very bottom. If you disagree, so be it, but your opinion is no more fact than anyone else's. This thread did ask about the 'actual' structure, but I guess from this discussion that even that is up for debate. The 25th file cards only support what I've always believed to be true since '82. That's how my army is structured because it's what I believe to be true, not just some fantasy I made up. Again, your army might be different, but that's clearly based on your interpretation. this is even reinforced further in the Python Patrol, which saw the release of both a PP Viper and Trooper (not quite the effort to faze out the Trooper as you claim). and with those two distinct sects of Cobra being released together, the PP Viper still says that they are where any PP member has to start, so the Viper rank is not only the bottom of the Cobra organization it is apparently the bottom of every sect of it apparently. again, Hasbro saw fit to clearly state that the Viper was the bottom, even when released side by side with the Trooper. we can go on, but your attempt to claim that this clearly stated structure straight from Hasbro is simply my interpretation is unreasonable and false. no hard feelings, I hope. this exchange is not personal between us so I hope you don't take it as such. I've made my position based on clear and factual empirical evidence. it can't be any clearer or factual, and any attempt to dispute it with the position of preference simply isn't an argument I find reasonable to continue to debate, so I won't do so any longer. I think I've been as logical as can be and the subject doesn't require any further exchange on my part. I am sure any of my other previous answers will serve as sufficient response to any further attacks on my position. |
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