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03-04-2009, 12:21 PM | #71 |
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The original Joe run was on Marvel, no? And of course The Punisher is unrealistic but so was Sgt. Slaughter and many of the other Joe-verse characters. When you argued the fact that Slaughter would best Beach-Head, you were saying it was the Joe-Verse Slaughter as opposed to the real-life man. So realism wasn't the important factor there, nor is it here.. It is totally difficult to compare the Marvel universe (or any) superheroes to the Joes though, the Joes are much more human.
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03-04-2009, 12:49 PM | #72 |
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Quote:
The original Joe run was on Marvel, no? And of course The Punisher is unrealistic but so was Sgt. Slaughter and many of the other Joe-verse characters. When you argued the fact that Slaughter would best Beach-Head, you were saying it was the Joe-Verse Slaughter as opposed to the real-life man. So realism wasn't the important factor there, nor is it here.. It is totally difficult to compare the Marvel universe (or any) superheroes to the Joes though, the Joes are much more human.
1. How are we defining Joeverse? If we include the Cartoon, the realism is almost completely gone. Cartoon Slaughter was a lot different that comic book Slaughter. A lot of fans consider the comic to be cannon, but the cartoon is just superfluous. It all depends on how one understands "Joeverse". Realism is a factor in the comic book. So when I argued that Joeverse Slaughter versus Joeverse Beach-Head, I was thinking of the comic book - though who could forget those iconic episodes of the Cartoon? 2. It's a real question as to how attached the Marvel Joe comic was attached to the rest of the Marvel Universe. As best I can recall, J. Jonah Jameson makes a cameo in one issue, but that's it... and we're never told that it's J. Jonah Jameson - it could have just been someone who looked like him. I'm pretty sure no one else every showed up from the Marvel Universe. None of the crazy, world events of the Marvel Universe affected the Joeverse. So that's a question. The Joes are "much more human", I guess I just think some of the Marvel Characters are supposed to be "just human"... the Punisher being one of them. And if we're dealing with a human being, then context becomes an issue. The Punisher may have fought all those Super villains, but Beach-Head never had the opportunity to fight them because they don't exist in Joeverse. Similarly, The Punisher has never dealt with anything exactly like Cobra. The context of accomplishment doesn't mesh well. The separate realities sort of oppose one another, and no matrix for comparison is readily available.
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03-04-2009, 12:59 PM | #73 |
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This is a tough one. I hold Beachhead up there as one of the toughest Joes. I think we have never really seen what Beachhead is capable of. We really only see the over the top exploits of Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow, and somewhat Firefly. I doubt either would fight each other anyway. Punisher is a Good guy and Beachhead seems to have a respect for toughness and I doubt he would really get upset about the vigilantism.
Really we need to compare Firefly to Punisher as I see him like the Cobra Beachhead equivalent with no scruples at all. |
03-04-2009, 01:15 PM | #74 |
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Flint is alot like the Punisher now that Lady Jaye is dead. So fool of hate!! I like it!
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03-04-2009, 01:23 PM | #75 |
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Punisher for the WIN!!
Easy choice. At least until BH shows us something in the new comic run. *crosses fingers*
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03-04-2009, 01:31 PM | #76 |
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It's the Punisher with the easy win.
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03-04-2009, 01:41 PM | #77 |
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Quote:
Well, I suppose there are a couple of questions that are begged here...
1. How are we defining Joeverse? If we include the Cartoon, the realism is almost completely gone. Cartoon Slaughter was a lot different that comic book Slaughter. A lot of fans consider the comic to be cannon, but the cartoon is just superfluous. It all depends on how one understands "Joeverse". Realism is a factor in the comic book. So when I argued that Joeverse Slaughter versus Joeverse Beach-Head, I was thinking of the comic book - though who could forget those iconic episodes of the Cartoon? 2. It's a real question as to how attached the Marvel Joe comic was attached to the rest of the Marvel Universe. As best I can recall, J. Jonah Jameson makes a cameo in one issue, but that's it... and we're never told that it's J. Jonah Jameson - it could have just been someone who looked like him. I'm pretty sure no one else every showed up from the Marvel Universe. None of the crazy, world events of the Marvel Universe affected the Joeverse. So that's a question. The Joes are "much more human", I guess I just think some of the Marvel Characters are supposed to be "just human"... the Punisher being one of them. And if we're dealing with a human being, then context becomes an issue. The Punisher may have fought all those Super villains, but Beach-Head never had the opportunity to fight them because they don't exist in Joeverse. Similarly, The Punisher has never dealt with anything exactly like Cobra. The context of accomplishment doesn't mesh well. The separate realities sort of oppose one another, and no matrix for comparison is readily available. I'd also note: The Punisher has fought HYDRA and AIM, who were both "Cobra" before there was a Cobra. Indeed, the initial comic pitch that eventually evolved into the G.I. Joe that we know and love was going to be a SHIELD-based book ("Fury of SHIELD") with a sect of HYDRA as the recurring villains. Cobra's not exactly the same as HYDRA, but it's not different enough that one can really say the Punisher "hasn't fought anything like Cobra." If you want to get technical and say "exactly" like Cobra, you're right...but he's fought very similar organizations. |
03-04-2009, 02:21 PM | #78 |
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Yep, like I said, the genre shift simply makes Punisher's feats more impressive because he's forced to operate on a higher level. However we can't really start "handicapping" one way or another because that defeats the purpose of the comparison. Superhero "humans" do ridiculously impossible or even blatantly superhuman stuff all the time. Joe "humans" are only a little bit beyond real-world humans. About the level of an average "action movie hero" really. Even bringing Joes into the Marvel Universe wouldn't automatically "amp them up." Generally the military is nothing but cannon fodder in superhero universes. There are a few exceptions, but most of them happen in specific timeframes (World War II) or are part of organizations that aren't traditional military groups (SHIELD). To put it another way - If the military were capable of fighting/beating the bad guys in a superhero universe, there wouldn't be any need for the superheroes.
I'd also note: The Punisher has fought HYDRA and AIM, who were both "Cobra" before there was a Cobra. Indeed, the initial comic pitch that eventually evolved into the G.I. Joe that we know and love was going to be a SHIELD-based book ("Fury of SHIELD") with a sect of HYDRA as the recurring villains. Cobra's not exactly the same as HYDRA, but it's not different enough that one can really say the Punisher "hasn't fought anything like Cobra." If you want to get technical and say "exactly" like Cobra, you're right...but he's fought very similar organizations. What I'm arguing is that because of the given context of each character, it doesn't make a lot of sense to compare them. Punisher lives/works in fantasy Superhero world. Beach-Head lives is a less fantastic, fictional reality. They are products of their respective universes. It's like asking who would win, a Bald Eagle or a Shark? Well we could talk about each one's ability, but where could they ever fight? Or we might talk about Shaq versus Peyton Manning in an Athletic competition, but when would they ever play each other? We all recall what happened when Michael Jordan tried Baseball. It's apples and oranges. That's the point I'm making; Context is everything. Hydra and A.I.M. might be like Cobra, but given the worlds in which they operate, They are very different... hence what I said before, "The Punisher has never dealt with anything exactly like Cobra." The Punisher's experiences don't even make sense in Joeverse... "Really, you worked with a stretchy man and and invisible woman to defeat a giant, intergalactic man with a pink helmet? A guy riding a flying surf board helped? ... right." Conversely, Beach-Head's problems seem like and afternoon's work for the Avengers or the X-Men in the Marvel Universe. In the context of Joeverse, Frank Castle would be a highly trained, Ex-Marine Officer, who is a Vietnam vet. He has a one man vigilante mission against all kinds of crime across the world... There are no Super villains crazy stuff in the Joeverse. So if the Punisher came to the Joeverse, the whole reality of his experiences have to change. If you want to maintain that Punisher's experiences are essential to the character - they are part of what makes the Punisher "The Punisher" - then he can't come to Joeverse. It's Eagles and Sharks... they operate on separate plains of existence.
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03-04-2009, 02:33 PM | #79 |
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I'm taking into account the MAX imprint version of The Punisher. Which takes place in the real world. No super powers, no super-villains.
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03-04-2009, 02:43 PM | #80 |
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I don't collect comics anymore (except for Joe stuff); I stopped in 2003 and then sold all of them on E-bay in 2007, but when I stopped I had EVERY SINGLE PUNISHER COMIC EVER!! I had every mini-series, regular series, Graphic Novel, every guest appearance, every little cameo appearance and of course I had his early appearances in Amazing Spider-Man and Marvel Premiere. I have also read every single Joe comic from that Marvel, DDP and IDW has produced (that I know of). I've also seen every Sunbow and Dic episode. I also dig both characters equally and am not subjectively biased one way or the other. So, if anyone if qualified to make this call, it is me. And believe me, there is no way at all that Beach-Head would win in a fight. Frank's knowledge, experience, shrewdness, proclivity to violence and arsenal would over-whelm B.H. Also, according Garth Ennis's "Born" mini-series, Frank, like Tenacious D, is fueled by Satan... so unless BeachHead is really tight with J.C. I don't think he has a prayer (pun intended).
Last edited by quintonarledge; 03-04-2009 at 02:45 PM.. |
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