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10-24-2009, 09:54 AM | #9771 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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So Snake-Eyes is like "Wilson". I would have never put that together. Nice catch,Tanksmasher. ;)
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
10-24-2009, 09:57 AM | #9772 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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It's like I said, maybe Larry doesn't even know or want to make an answer. Maybe the real answer is that there is no answer. Snake-Eyes' real MOS is "Mysterious"... it's a literary device.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
10-24-2009, 09:58 AM | #9773 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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10-24-2009, 11:22 AM | #9774 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Excellent point. To draw up a parallel, I think one of the main reasons I've lost interest in Wolverine (the X-Men character) is the way they've revealed his "secret past" over the years (coincidentally, starting with the latter half of Larry Hama's run on the original Wolverine on-going comic book). Sometimes, the reality (even a putative and fictional one) just can't measure up to all the stuff we've imagined over the years, and even if it does, the "loss of mystery" sometimes decreases certain characters' appeal.
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10-24-2009, 11:27 AM | #9775 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Quote:
In December 1965, the 1st Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division created a provisional LRRP platoon. In April 1966, the 1st Infantry Division and 173rd Airborne Brigade formed provisional LRRP units, followed by more LRRP units in the 25th Infantry Division in June 1966. General W. C. Westmoreland authorized the official creation of LRRP units on July 8, 1966. Afterwards, the 4th and 9th Infantry Divisions, the 196th Light Infantry Brigade and the 1st Air Cavalry Division created their own LRRP units. In June 1967, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Earle G. Wheeler, authorized two LRP companies for I and II Field Forces. The LRRP platoons from the 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne Division and the 173rd Airborne Brigade, along with replacement soldiers, helped formed Company E (LRP), 20th Infantry (Airborne) and Company F (LRP), 51st Infantry (Airborne) respectively. Each company had about 230 men, commanded by a major. On February 1, 1969 divisional LRP companies and brigade detachments were designated as Ranger companies of the 75th Infantry Regiment. Ranger companies were inactivated as they withdrew from the war between November 1969 and August 15, 1972. MACV Recondo School was formally approved by General Westmoreland on September 4, 1966. The three-week course was taught in Nha Trang by the 5th Special Forces Group, who previously instructed recon teams for Project Delta. Personnel from all branches of the US Armed Forces, along with soldiers from Vietnam, Korea, Australia, Thailand and the Philippines, attended together. Classes typically had 60 students and students were formed into five-man teams with an instructor. During October and November of 1967, all classes were reserved for personnel from LRP Company E (20th Infantry) and F (51st Infantry), but none of the 333 students completed all of the requirements and were not awarded Recondo numbers. Over 3000 personnel, including the above 333, were trained between September 1966 and December 1970. Awesome find Tanksmasher! Does this mean Stalker had to go Special Forces since his Company may have been deactivated? Maybe take a back seat for a while to catch up language skills, and thus the lower pay grade? Quote:
I think that SE would have been a LRRP first and then joined SF when he re-enlisted for a second tour. Granted, none of this may be what Hama intended--I'm extrapolating and considering all possibilities--but to say that SE went SF is not at all implausible. In fact it is very likely. Many guys, particularly LRRPs, joined SF during the war. And keep in mind that recruitment back then was different than it is now. For instance, you could attend SF training as a private right out of BCT, AIT and Jump School. Now if SE was a draftee (and we don't really know), he would only serve two years active duty, but if he joined SF he would have to extend his service to 3 years. And if he had volunteered for the Army, his service would already be for 3 years.
To join SF, a soldier needed at least 18 months remaining on his enlistment, so if he joined after completing his first tour, he would have had 18 months in the Army at that point. That leaves 18 months left of a 3-year service, but SF volunteers were required to have 18 months of service left AFTER training, which lasted anywhere from 18 to 42 weeks depending on MOS (medics required the most; weapons leader the least). However the Army often waived certain requirements so what actually ocurred often differed from what was written. The best theory to date! Interesting note: From 1969, all who graduated the SF Qual Course were promoted to E-5 Sgt. Graduates were slotted into E-6 and E-7 positions. Also, they underwent a 2 week combat course at Recondo School. I knew I had heard this before where SF grads got bumped to E-7. I wonder if this still holds true today? You have to be an E-4 to start Q course right? Recondo School was run by 5th SF Group and MACV, not MACV-SOG from what I understand. What's the difference? Quote:
Now, for my money - Larry's making the case that Snake-Eyes an exceptional LRRP and was thus recruited for MACV-SOG, but he's not saying Snake-Eyes is Special Forces. Then again, with the fire at Ft. Leonard Wood, who knows what Larry is really saying. Maybe Larry doesn't even know or want to make an answer. Maybe the real answer is that there is no answer. Snake-Eyes' real MOS is "Mysterious"... it's a literary device.
But you guys did a great job of trying to research all this while I was gone. Sorry you had to reread Declassified, Troynos. Wow. Tanksmasher owes you Big Time. ;) I don't think he wants us to know. Or maybe he's afraid what we'll find out? Quote:
Based on that article y'all tracked down, it seems like "Robert 'Bob' Light" is as good as it's going to get for a "real" name for Snake-Eyes.
That's weird. I once had a dream about Snake-Eyes real name. I think I was in middle school. I was rereading the comics. This mystery really, really appealed to me. Anyway, I had a dream and in the dream I found out that Snake-Eyes name was "Robert..." and then I woke up. I never heard his last name. But it's funny that Robert was the name in my dream, and the real guy's name was Bob. I always thought it would be Bob. Quote:
Oh I'd love to see Nth man return. Quote:
Damn you guys were busy! |
10-24-2009, 12:45 PM | #9776 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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Hey Loose, I'll try to answer some of your questions.
MACV became the unified command center for all military operations in Vietnam. One of many components of MACV, the 5th SF Group was the HQ and training center for all SF personnel except for those in SOG. SOG, or MACV-SOG as it was also known, was only subordinate to the Special Assistant for Counterinsurgency and Special Activities (SACSA)—a two-star general and staff who coordinated with the Joint Chief’s J-3 Operations Officer and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon. Only five non-SOG officers in Saigon knew of its existence: General Westmoreland; his chief of staff; his J-2; the Seventh Air Force commander; and the US Naval Forces, Vietnam commander. Colonel Clyde Russell became the first Chief SOG and structured SOG after the old WWII Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The SOG commanders were Colonels Clyde Russell (1964-1965), Donald Blackburn (1965-1966), John Singlaub (1966-1968), Stephen Cavanaugh (1968-1970), and John Sadler (1970-72)--all SF officers. Although Stalker was initially a LRRP, then redesignated a Ranger who eventually went to Ranger School, I'd like to think that he went SF sometime during his career, perhaps after his 1st tour in Nam. Keep in mind that enlisted men were promoted quickly during the war, but promotions slowed down back to the norm afterwards. Some BCT graduates immediately became E2s, others not until after AIT, but all new recruits arriving in Vietnam were promoted to E3, even though they only had six months in service. Some recruits attended the NCO Course after AIT to become E5 Sgts before going off to Nam and the very best NCOC graduates were promoted to E6 Staff Sgt! You can imagine how guys who had worked years to become NCOs must have felt when these "instant NCOs" or "Shake N Bake Sgts" arrived in Vietnam with no experience to take over as squad leaders. However, from what I've read, these NCOs turned out to be effective leaders. I like to think that Stalker was selected for NCOC, and that's why he's the squad leader of a LRRP team that has more experienced men like SE who had already done a tour with Tommy. So why isn't Stalker ranked higher when he joins GI Joe? After the war, perhaps Stalker left the military for a while and returned later like SE. Perhaps, like you said, he was demoted or held back from another promotion because he disobeyed an order or broke a rule, though he was morally just in doing so. In peace time the average time in service before becoming an E-6 is about 8.5 years, though some NCOs took as long as 14 years. During the Vietnam war, NCOC graduates became E-6s with only about a year in service (NCOC took about 12 weeks plus another 9-10 weeks of OJT). Those who didn't attend NCOC but were recognized as committed soldiers during their tours often made E-5 near the end of their tours (about 1 1/2 years in service) and some were offered E-6 promotions if they reupped. I like to think this is how Duke earned his stripes. He didn't attend NCOC like Stalker because Duke enlisted a little earlier, prior to the school's development, and through hard work and dedication to his fellow men during the war, he worked his way up the ladder. By 1983 when Duke first appears in GI Joe, he is a First Sgt. If he stayed in the Army since 1967, which he probably did, he would have had about 16 years in service. The average time in service to make E-8 is 17 years, so his rank is realistic. He would have climbed the ladder quickly in Nam, but steadied out after the war. For comparison, just look at Major Dick Meadows. This guy enlisted at 15 in 1946, saw combat in Korea, and made MSGT in 1950 at age 19. He was the youngest MSGT in the Army. He remained a MSGT for 17 years until 1967 when he received a direct commission as a Captain during his SOG tour. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 10-24-2009 at 02:16 PM.. |
10-24-2009, 02:30 PM | #9777 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,754
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Deal.
Joecon works too. ;)
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10-24-2009, 02:31 PM | #9778 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,754
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Quote:
Excellent point. To draw up a parallel, I think one of the main reasons I've lost interest in Wolverine (the X-Men character) is the way they've revealed his "secret past" over the years (coincidentally, starting with the latter half of Larry Hama's run on the original Wolverine on-going comic book). Sometimes, the reality (even a putative and fictional one) just can't measure up to all the stuff we've imagined over the years, and even if it does, the "loss of mystery" sometimes decreases certain characters' appeal.
And yeah, love to see Nth man return.
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Join the New England G.I. Joe Collector's Group: Battleforce New England Join the March of Cobra. Read the epic adventure on Kindle Worlds and visit the page to learn more. https://www.facebook.com/marchofcobra/ |
10-24-2009, 04:49 PM | #9779 |
disgruntled goat
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NYS- Finger Lakes
Posts: 2,110
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slow day at work so i've been putting together a "Cold Weather Specialist" roster for my Joe team. the snow troops are some of my favorite joes & cobras.
i know some of these guys have multiple versions so i will just rename those figs in my 'verse. also there are the arctic commandos and winter ops figs too but the stalkers & short fuze are the only ones i like/ would use. i would rename then too since those guys would be on another roster somewhere. let me know if i missed any. Snow Job Frostbite (Snow Cat driver) Iceberg Avalanche (Dominator driver) Blizzard Windchill (Arctic Blast driver) Sub Zero Cold Front (Avalanche driver) Snow Storm White Out Last edited by Topside; 10-24-2009 at 07:49 PM.. |
10-24-2009, 04:53 PM | #9780 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,754
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The list looks good. I can't think of any others.
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