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09-24-2009, 07:57 PM | #9311 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
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Quote:
So how does Marine Force Recon exist with the Marine Corps? Is that their official Special Forces unit or was it absorbed into MSOB? I'm confused by all of the different unit names, such as Marine Special Operations Battalion, Marine Expeditionary Force, Marine Force Recon, etc.
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First, let's define some terms:
The Marines organize their combat assets into MAGTFs (Marine Air-Ground Task Forces). MAGTFs come in three different sizes but they all share the same basic functional structure, scaled relative to the task force size. A MAGTF, regardless of size, is composed of a Command Element, a Ground Combat Element, a Logistics Combat Element, and an Aviation Combat Element. The largest MAGTF formation is the MEF (Marine Expeditionary Force). An MEF's Command Element is an MEF Headquarters Group (approx. 2000 to 3000 marines), its Ground Combat Element is a Marine Division (approx. 20 000 marines), its Logistics Combat Element is a Marine Logistics Group (approx. 2000 to 5000 marines), and its Aviation Combat Element is a Marine Air Wing (approx. 1000 to 5000 marines and anywhere between 48 to 100 aircraft). Of course, not all operations require such massive amounts of equipment and personnel. For smaller operations, an MEF can use a Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB). An MEB's Command Element is a battalion-sized (approx. 300 to 1000 marines) Headquarters unit derived from the MEF Headquarters Group, its Ground Combat Element is a Marine Regimental Combat Team (approx. 2000 to 3000 marines) taken from the Marine Division, its Logistics Combat Element is a Combat Logistics Regiment (approx. 2000 to 3000 marines), and its Aviation Combat Element is a Marine Aircraft Group (approx. 300 to 1000 marines and anywhere between 17 to 48 aircraft) subordinate to the Marine Air Wing. If the operational requirements are even smaller, an MEF has multiple Marine Expeditionary Units (MEUs) under its control. An MEU is the smallest MAGTF that can operate independently from its parent MEF. An MEU's Command Element is a company-sized (approx. 200 marines) Headquarters unit, its Ground Combat Element is a landing team about the size of a reinforced battalion (approx. 1000 to 1200 marines), its Logistics Combat Element is a Combat Logistics Battalion (approx. 300 to 1000 marines), and its Aviation Combat Element is a Marine Aircraft Squadron (approx. 100 to 300 marines and anywhere between 7 to 16 aircraft). It's within the MEU's Ground Combat Element that you will find the current Force Reconnaissance Companies. Their relationship to MARSOC's MSOBs is a bit like the 82nd Airborne Division subordinate infantry regiments' relationship to the 75th Ranger Regiment. In both cases, it can be argued that the former is just as good as the latter in terms of the core skills they are known for (rapid deployment direct action, deep battlefield reconnaissance) but because Force Recon and the 82nd Airborne aren't a part of USSOCOM, they tend to get dismissed (unfairly, in my mind) as not being as good as their USSOCOM brothers-in-arms. Last edited by zuludelta; 09-24-2009 at 08:45 PM.. Reason: edited for spelling and formatting |
09-24-2009, 08:03 PM | #9312 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Special Operations.Com
There is also the Maritime Special Purpose Force (MSPF) Which it probably more like the Joes than any other unit. but I think it may just be thrown together from the various units within the MEU it's a part of. I think it's a small unit though like 2 platoons. I don't know if every MEU gets one? They were sort of taking the place of a Force Recon unit where one is not available. But Not sure where the Force Recon guys are a part of? |
09-24-2009, 08:52 PM | #9313 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Ok, so there's still Force Recon Marines but they're not classified or considered as Marine SOF units.
The current Marine SOF units, as far as I can tell, fall under MARSOC and that consists of Marine Special Operation Battalions (MSOB), which consist of Marine Special Operation Companies (MSOC), which consist of Marine Special Operation Teams (MSOT). MSOT consists of around 14 marines, a fairly large squad, led by a captain. MSOT is kind of like the equivalent of the Army's SFOD-A or a Navy SEAL Team or a Delta Force Squadron |
09-24-2009, 09:00 PM | #9314 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
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The Marines call them SOC (Special Operations-Capable), because USSOCOM discourages non-USSOCOM units from using the SF and SOF labels, even though the capabilities and missions of MEU Force Recon Companies/Deep Recon Platoons are no different from what Ranger Recon Platoons do. Sounds petty, but I'm sure they have a good reason for doing so.
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09-24-2009, 09:42 PM | #9315 |
I.O. SpecOps
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a secret underground bunker.
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I not sure, but I think 4th Force Recon Co.(reserve) ie still indepedent. Also since MARSOC operators have their own pipeline, you'll see the percentage of former Force Recon elements in the unit drop in the future. Also MARSOC includes ANGLICO, radio recon, sensor recon and intelligence elements. So that their scope mission is a lot wider than what Force Recon was doing.
United States Marine Corps Forces - Special Operations Command - MARSOC
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Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery? http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-jo...r1s-b-s-t.html |
09-24-2009, 09:57 PM | #9316 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
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Quote:
What I'm not so clear on is if the current Force Reconnaissance Companies under I, II, and III MEF (just read that 5th FORECON became B Company of III MEF's Reconnaissance Battalion) have retained the Force Recon training pipeline from the pre-MARSOC era, or if they're Force Recon in name only. I can't seem to find anything that confirms this one way or another. |
09-24-2009, 10:22 PM | #9317 |
I.O. SpecOps
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In a secret underground bunker.
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Quote:
You're right, 4th FORECON looks like it's still independent... at the very least, they still have a Marine Reserve unit page.
What I'm not so clear on is if the current Force Reconnaissance Companies under I, II, and III MEF (just read that 5th FORECON became B Company of III MEF's Reconnaissance Battalion) have retained the Force Recon training pipeline from the pre-MARSOC era, or if they're Force Recon in name only. I can't seem to find anything that confirms this one way or another.
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09-25-2009, 12:30 AM | #9318 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
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Thanks for the info (neat username, BTW, I only just realised that it's an IO reference).
As for MARSOC... I guess I fall into the camp of the guys not really convinced of its necessity and utility. I've read a number of papers from JSOU on the subject of its creation and its purpose, and the concept just strikes me as redundant, especially in light of what NAVSPECWARCOM already does and what the various MAGTF set-ups are already capable of without USSOCOM's involvement: A Maritime Special Purpose Force with the proper staffing could equal, and probably even exceed, any MSOT/MSOB's capabilities (especially since an MSPF would have direct access to an MEU's organic aviation elements). Maybe I just haven't been reading the right papers or listening to the best arguments for MARSOC's creation. I've always admired the Corps for its fiscal responsibility and organizational efficiency, especially when compared to its "big brothers" but (and I mean no disrespect to the people who work in MARSOC when I say this) the whole MARSOC thing just seems like an exercise in getting a piece of the USSOCOM budget. Last edited by zuludelta; 09-25-2009 at 12:32 AM.. |
09-25-2009, 12:50 AM | #9319 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Mitten
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09-25-2009, 01:04 AM | #9320 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pulaski, VA
Posts: 738
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I took the quiz and I'm a America: Special Forces a.k.a. Green Beret.
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