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09-19-2009, 11:56 PM | #9211 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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Hey Blackrazor when was that show I never saw it but it sounds cool. Yeah I bet many of these units until recently did almost no CQCB training, except Delta and Devgru, and I believe Force Recon also trained as well. But Force Recon Roles have shifted recently, and so what was once Hostage Rescue trainings falls to the MSPF now.
I wouldn't put PJs and CCT's so high only for the fact that they are serving a role to another unit, so although they are capable of Direct Action that is not their role. I see it like if they get attached to Delta Force, or an ODA team they are in effect part of that unit. Don't get me wrong I think they are some of the best trained individuals as a whole and they tend to get more training than anyone, certainly anyone you listed below them. Well I'm always partial to the Corps. |
09-20-2009, 12:06 AM | #9212 |
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As for experience, up until very recently most big city SWAT officers had more "trigger time" than the guys at SOCOM. Anybody remember the reality Combat Missions with Rudy from Survivor? They had Navy SEALs on there, who said the didn't do CQB. The SWAT guys beat them quite a few times. A SWAT guy was the last man standing.
I think the best recent example of how special police units' practical experience in urban CQB makes them more qualified than their military counterparts in certain contexts was during the Balkan conflict. When the United Nations/NATO needed special CQB units in Kosovo to form the core of Special Team Six (the UN's counterterrorism task force), they went with Germany's GSG-9, Norway's EKO Cobra, Norway's Beredskapstroppen, Sweden's NI, and the Czech Republic's URNA... all of them "civilian" counterterrorism units specializing in CQB, as they were the ones best qualified for "house-to-house" and "block-by-block" warfare against paramilitary insurgents. Last edited by zuludelta; 09-20-2009 at 12:35 AM.. |
09-20-2009, 12:23 AM | #9213 |
I.O. SpecOps
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Hey Blackrazor when was that show I never saw it but it sounds cool. Yeah I bet many of these units until recently did almost no CQCB training, except Delta and Devgru, and I believe Force Recon also trained as well. But Force Recon Roles have shifted recently, and so what was once Hostage Rescue trainings falls to the MSPF now.
I wouldn't put PJs and CCT's so high only for the fact that they are serving a role to another unit, so although they are capable of Direct Action that is not their role. I see it like if they get attached to Delta Force, or an ODA team they are in effect part of that unit. Don't get me wrong I think they are some of the best trained individuals as a whole and they tend to get more training than anyone, certainly anyone you listed below them. Well I'm always partial to the Corps. YouTube - combat missions evolution 1 Also don't sleep on the capabilities of the PJs and CCTs. As Special Tactics Teams/Squadrons, they can do a host of direct action missions on their own(hostage rescue, airfield seizures, terminal guidance).
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Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery? http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-jo...r1s-b-s-t.html |
09-20-2009, 03:13 AM | #9214 |
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That's pretty Funny, Oliver. I had that same feeling last weekend, when It was family day at the Agency. My kids had to go to the bathroom and we had to walk past the SAD offices. I unfortunately had no one to share that sentiment with. But it did feel like GIJoe HQ.
But what is the function of the Civil Affairs guys? If they are attached to a unit do they get deployed as well? I mean especially if they are doing the rotation to get a break from the action. I'm just wondering if a 12 man ODA team goes out but then they get a Civil Affairs guy and a Psy-Ops guys and a Combat Controller tagging along it's a 15 man team now. And since Zulu made me look it seems like the MARSOC Marines are turning into their Version of the Green Berets. Particularly since they now stress continual language training and have added a advisory, training element in support of a partner "nation" As for the Marine Advisors... I couldn't speak to that. I do know that the Army now has a program for Officers to train them to be advisors for the Iraqi Army. They work in teams of 12 Officers and split up to advise the new Iraqi Defense Force. The teams are modeled on the old ODA Teams in 'Nam.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
09-20-2009, 03:24 AM | #9215 |
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Truth is, only the CIA (and their SAD) is legally allowed by the US Constitution to conduct covert action special missions. For reference, see the National Security Act of 1947, Executive Order 12333 (signed by Ronald Reagan in 1984), and the 1991 Intelligence Authorization Act. Department of Defense entities such as USSOCOM can designate certain operations as top secret or classified, but they cannot legally conduct deniable operations. It just seems odd to me that for all of Hama's writing that the Joes are the ultimate defenders of the US Constitution, the way he's set the team up is in direct contravention of it. I'm not a big fan of the whole "to defend the Constitution one has to violate it" way of thinking.
I know it seems like nit-pciking, but to me, there's a real important difference between covert action (a "deniable" operation), which is something only the CIA is allowed to do, and a classified special mission (an operation whose details are restricted knowledge), which is something that Delta and DEVGRU engage in. Legality issues are often avoided because groups like Delta and DEVGRU and the ISA don't officially exist. If the groups don't exist, you don't have to worry about deniability in the same way: how could there have been an operation by a unit that doesn't exist?
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
09-20-2009, 03:30 AM | #9216 |
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That's true about SWAT guys having more real-world CQB experience than many military special forces operatives. That fact is actually reflected in the special operations units of other countries. Germany, for example, didn't have a dedicated "military" counterterrorism unit up until the late 1990s. Their most elite counterterrorism operators (and widely considered to be in the upper echelon of CT units, right up there with the SAS, Delta, and DEVGRU), the GSG-9, are actually a part of the Federal Police. Canada's old elite counter-terrorism unit, SERT, was a part of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, until counter-terrorism responsibilities were transferred to the Ministry of Defence (with the formation of JTF2) to help integrate Canada's CT capability with that of other STANAG/NATO countries. In China, the elite Snow Wolf Commandos are part of the People's Armed Police (although they use military-style uniforms and ranks).
I think the best recent example of how special police units' practical experience in urban CQB makes them more qualified than their military counterparts in certain contexts was during the Balkan conflict. When the United Nations/NATO needed special CQB units in Kosovo to form the core of Special Team Six (the UN's counterterrorism task force), they went with Germany's GSG-9, Norway's EKO Cobra, Norway's Beredskapstroppen, Sweden's NI, and the Czech Republic's URNA... all of them "civilian" counterterrorism units specializing in CQB, as they were the ones best qualified for "house-to-house" and "block-by-block" warfare against paramilitary insurgents. Any SWAT Team from any PD in America versus Delta Force? My money's on Delta Force. The FBI's HRT may give them a run for their money, but it was Delta who helped start and train that unit.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
09-20-2009, 05:01 AM | #9217 |
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No question about GSG-9. Those guys are awesome. But I watch "Dallas SWAT" and those guys versus Delta? I'm going with Delta...
... SWAT guys are good cops, but would those guys pass Delta Selection? Probably very few if any would make it past selection and graduate from training. In many European and some Asian nations, the gendarmerie/paramilitary constabulary is the primary government agency tasked with counterterrorism. It has a lot to do with geo-politics and perception. Before 9/11 (and even after), terrorism was something that many American politicians and administrators considered a "foreign" problem (even after the Oklahoma City Bombing demonstrated that domestic terrorism is a real threat). It's something that many desk drivers thought only happened in other countries. Hence, the task of government-mandated counterterrorism in the US originally fell under the purview of the Department of Defense and the military. Elsewhere, however, domestic terrorism is an active and on-going threat. And combating terrorists within a nation's borders almost always falls under the jurisdiction of those countries' gendarmeries (in the countries where they have an equivalent to the Posse Comitatus Act in play). So in these nations, the gendarmerie have developed elite civilian counterterrorism units equivalent in breadth of CQB and counterterrorism training to some of the best USSOCOM has to offer, and in some of the more politically unstable areas, their special gendarmerie units' actual real-world CQB experience exceeds that of their USSOCOM counterparts. A perfect counter-example to the American Delta Force/FBI-HRT dichotomy is the relationship between Germany's GSG-9 (Federal Police Special Counterterrorism Unit) and KSK (Armed Forces Special Operations Commandos). Whereas in the US, the Delta Force training model inspired and informed the creation of the FBI's elite Hostage Rescue Teams, across the Atlantic, the information and inspiration direction was reversed: The GSG-9 actually conducted the selection and oversaw the training of the first class of KSK commandos in the late 1990s. So yeah, garden-variety US SWAT isn't comparable to USSOCOM's counterterrorist units in terms of training rigor. But the special police counterterrorism units of countries where counterterrorism is the primary concern of the Department/Ministry of the Interior (such as Germany's GSG-9 and France's GIGN), those probably have more in common with Delta Force and DEVGRU than one would normally expect from "civilian" agencies. Last edited by zuludelta; 09-20-2009 at 05:46 AM.. |
09-20-2009, 01:05 PM | #9218 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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You bring up a good point Oliver about The breed of bad guys that US SWAT units take on can be less than spectacular.
But like you said Zulu, we don't really have that GSG-9 paramilitary, Gendarmerie that most other countries use. I guess the need has not arisen yet. I suppose the UK uses SAS guys for hostage rescues internally so I suppose the US would use Delta-Force. But if we go to another country then we may be using DEVGRU or Delta, as they would fall under CIA guidance. Yeah Blackrazor I know I'm not giving the CCTs and PJs enough credit as I know of none of their exploits. You know many units are used to support a larger force, but there are those that go in small teams and perform raids, and those guys must have the biggest balls of all. (Sounds like the PJs doesn't it) |
09-20-2009, 02:47 PM | #9219 |
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The current London Metropolitan Police anti-terrorism agency, SO15, frequently cross-trains with the SAS, though. |
09-20-2009, 03:00 PM | #9220 |
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Just curious, I know the Joes are pulled from different branches of the military. What branch is represented the most?
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