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07-14-2009, 10:59 AM | #7481 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,245
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Quote:
Really. I figured someone knew. I mean these were all probably very young men for the most part. 22 and younger? Sort of has that Lord of the Flies/Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now feel to it. They were active until 72 right? So did they pull these guys back in at the end of 67 and replace them? Or did the same guys get just a stern talking to and sent back out in the bush?
The unit as a whole had a high casualty rate didn't it? How many officers went through that unit? It's led just by one Lt. right Hawkins. No Tigers were reprimaded or disciplined for killing civilians. However, Lt Wood, the forward observer who reported the crimes and tried to get rid of Hawkins, was transferred out of the unit. And Bruner, who also went up the chain of command, got reprimanded for being a tattle tale and was threatened with court martial. Bruner actually saved the life of a Vietnamese boy who was about to be executed by pointing his M16 at the face of one of his sgts. The tension among men was high. New recruits were given handguns and told to "bust their cherries" by executing prisoners. The official protocol was to call in a helicopter and have the civilians hauled away, but some men just wanted to kill them instead and they did. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 07-14-2009 at 11:02 AM.. |
07-14-2009, 11:10 AM | #7482 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,650
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Quote:
The Tigers were always getting new replacements due to men finishing their tours, getting wounded and even killed. So many of the replacements were fresh recruits with no previous combat experience. However, many of the team leaders were seasoned veterans. SSgt Trout and Sgt Doyle were in their thirties. Hawkins was just one of the officers who led the platoon, but he was the one who ordered men to execute prisoners, which was not allowed.
No Tigers were reprimaded or disciplined for killing civilians. However, Lt Wood, the forward observer who reported the crimes and tried to get rid of Hawkins, was transferred out of the unit. And Bruner, who also went up the chain of command, got reprimanded for being a tattle tale and was threatened with court martial. Bruner actually saved the life of a Vietnamese boy who was about to be executed by pointing his M16 at the face of one of his sgts. The tension among men was high. New recruits were given handguns and told to "bust their cherries" by executing prisoners. The official protocol was to call in a helicopter and have the civilians hauled away, but some men just wanted to kill them instead and they did. |
07-14-2009, 11:22 AM | #7483 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,245
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Quote:
That's the Islamic Terrorists, they think they're right in their actions, so no matter what, even reprisals, they don't make the connection that if they hadn't bombed first, then the Israeli's wouldn't have bombed second.
So where do you draw the line? I think Tiger Force stepped over it when they started actions against women, children and non-combatants. But the idea of a unit that has "carte blanche" isn't that bad an idea. I think after 911 we took the wrong track, we didn't react quick enough and hard enough. Instead of asking permission from the UN, should have just went in and wiped Al Quada off the face of the map and then gone to the UN and said "they started it." So when our military or other militaries carry out atrocities or war crimes, we tend to overlook them or rationalize them because we believe that our people would never deliberately do that, because we're the good guys, right? But things fall apart in war. Once the bullets start flying, politics and love of country and honor and rules of engagement go out the window. Your only instinct is to survive and protect your friends and fellow soldiers. The problem I have with Afghanistan is that civilians who are just trying to live their lives are hurt by both sides, intentionally and unintentionally. Imagine if police came into your neighborhood and starting throwing tear gas and firing rounds at everything that moved because they knew that there was a drug lord living in that neighborhood. Imagine your friends or family getting wounded or killed in the chaos because of a few dangerous elements living in proximity. I think the solutions are complex and require careful consideration and implementation. I think there should be strict rules about engaging the enemy in an area where civilians live. Of course, the enemy will use them as shields and hide among them, but imagine if the enemy looked like you and was hiding in your neighborhood. You'd probably feel differently about what tactics should be employed in finding these people. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 07-14-2009 at 11:26 AM.. |
07-14-2009, 11:34 AM | #7484 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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What makes the "good guys" and "bad guys" in the terror war is the WILLINGNESS to intentional harm innocents that aren't involved in the war (suicide bombings at non-military targets).
There is nothing that can justify, especially religious or national, the INTENTIONAL killing of innocents. Friendly fire and non-combatant deaths are a byproduct of war, wish it wasn't, but sadly it will happen. You do everything in your power to avoid it, and it damn well better be accidental if it does occur. The line is the intentional and willing killing of innocents. For the Nazis, the entire Jewish race was innocents. For Tiger Force, it was the women and children. For me, the minute your "righteousness" allows you to bomb a non-military/innocent site and kill civilians that aren't involved in your "war", then you've crossed the line and the gloves are off. I'm not saying to just go in and go nuts in civilian areas, of course different tactics are called for.
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07-14-2009, 12:08 PM | #7485 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,650
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Quote:
I think it depends on the motivation to go "rogue" and carry out these atrocities. If they're doing it because you get off on it, then yeah, would go Cobra, but if doing it because they feel it's the only way to get the job done, then they're still fighting the good fight but now firmly believe "the ends justify the means". (Most likely what Tiger Force thought)
Sometimes, I think you do need to fight fire with fire. I think our biggest problem with the "war on terror" is that we think in terms of battles and armies and rules of engagement. When you're dealing with people ready to commit suicide to blow up some others, that's a different kind of mindset that we're just not prepared to face. ( I think we don't anymore) The war on terror is a psychological war. And it will only ever be won when the Islamic world starts policing themselves. Not meaning to single out just that group of terrorists (since there are lots of others in the world). (Not so easy. Plus who does the policing? There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq under Saddam. No such authority in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, ) Dropping an Army into the area ends up working against you. You have to be as quick and as mobile as the enemy. If they fight guerilla style, you have to fight guerilla style. (Enter the Stryker Brigade) Take the Israelis for example. That is one tiny little country, that if united against 'em, the Middle Eastern countries could easily take out (not getting into allies and all that, just one on one). But the other countries are afraid of 'em. If their allies weren't holding 'em back, I think the Israelis would have gone "Munich" on alot of those terrorist groups by now. (Probably true, although many of the original heads of government in Israel were considered terrorists at one time) The problem is.. well, it's like this.. I have a friend, she (for what ever reason) cannot see that she does wrong. For example, if she does something to someone and then that person does it back to her, she can't make the connection that her actions may have caused it or that even though the other person is still wrong, she can't really get that upset with them. But she doesn't see that she did wrong, it's okay for her to do whatever she wants, but it's not okay for people to do the same to her. Does that make sense? That's the Islamic Terrorists, they think they're right in their actions, so no matter what, even reprisals, they don't make the connection that if they hadn't bombed first, then the Israeli's wouldn't have bombed second. So where do you draw the line? I think Tiger Force stepped over it when they started actions against women, children and non-combatants. But the idea of a unit that has "carte blanche" isn't that bad an idea. ( I think this usually only leads to abuses, of which just one could ruin everything you may have accomplished) I think after 911 we took the wrong track, we didn't react quick enough and hard enough. Instead of asking permission from the UN, should have just went in and wiped Al Quada off the face of the map and then gone to the UN and said "they started it." I don't think anything should ever be done to non-combatants, that's going over the line. But an enemy combatant, the gloves are off. Especially those willing to target civilians. I see what you're saying but unfortunately I don't think it is even that cut and dry. If it was that easy to wipe Al Qaeda off the map we would have done it. I think to say fight Fire with Fire doesn't do any good. As Americans we just don't do that. We can't let ourselves stoop to that level of terrorism. We can't terrorize the local population into listening to us as Al Qaeda does. Guerilla warfare doesn't work for the US, just for the one reason that Guerilla tactics are defined as: Guerrilla warfare is the unconventional warfare and combat in which a small group of combatants use mobile tactics in the form of ambushes and raids to combat a larger and less mobile formal army. The guerrilla army uses ambush and mobility in attacking vulnerable targets in enemy territory. Al Qaeda doesn't have targets or a large formal army. Vietnam was different because they did. I think the work the green Berets do with the local populations is fairly effective and is something a local tribesman can relate to and are receptive to. As far as your friend, Al Qaeda know what they are doing and they will keep doing it until they are stopped. They are totally taking advantage of the situation. Where these power vacuums exist they thrive. And it will take more than any army to change that. Nation building and a general rise in education levels. Plus a basic cultural shift. Which they probably would resist for generations if it is even possible. I think Sunni Rebels, Shia Rebels, Pashtun, Turkomen, Baluchis don't care who started it, they just want to make sure they end it, and get the last word in. I think it is even way more complicated. For instance, 1) it's hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys, Even for the Locals 2) The terrorists essentially use the local population as Human Shields 3) There are long standing regional and local differences in these places that go beyond Shia vs Sunni, or Islam vs Judism vs Christianity. Tribal level differences trump all other national level difference. 4) Education levels and poverty are so low in places that people may take any assistance from anyone and therefore switch sides just to survive. 5) Just because we've been there for 5 years doesn't mean we'll be there 5 years from now, especially since nobody wants us there and we don't even want to be there. Therefore expectations are low. (At this point I believe for us to make any difference at all we will have to be there for a long long time, which will probably only result in Afghans or Iraqis hating us more.) 6) Many of these people only know fighting. Local laws and even Islamic laws are not like the American Justice system. With very few trained Judges or even lawyers, They have always policed themselves and judged themselves. Now of course most of this is my opinions and what I seem to understand and know. So I don't mean to pick on you Troynos. We all have only a limited knowledge of the whole war on terror. So all our views can be completely different. I would love nothing more than if Snake-Eyes could kill Osama bin Laden tomorrow. He's a terrorist. But I can't marginalize why many Muslims support the what he is trying to accomplish. Bin Laden believes that the restoration of Sharia law will set things right in the Muslim world. Many Muslims Hate Americans and the West that's a fact that may never change. Last edited by Loose Cannon; 07-14-2009 at 12:10 PM.. |
07-14-2009, 12:13 PM | #7486 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,650
|
Quote:
What makes the "good guys" and "bad guys" in the terror war is the WILLINGNESS to intentional harm innocents that aren't involved in the war (suicide bombings at non-military targets).
There is nothing that can justify, especially religious or national, the INTENTIONAL killing of innocents. Friendly fire and non-combatant deaths are a byproduct of war, wish it wasn't, but sadly it will happen. You do everything in your power to avoid it, and it damn well better be accidental if it does occur. The line is the intentional and willing killing of innocents. For the Nazis, the entire Jewish race was innocents. For Tiger Force, it was the women and children. For me, the minute your "righteousness" allows you to bomb a non-military/innocent site and kill civilians that aren't involved in your "war", then you've crossed the line and the gloves are off. I'm not saying to just go in and go nuts in civilian areas, of course different tactics are called for. |
07-14-2009, 12:24 PM | #7487 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,650
|
Quote:
What makes the "good guys" and "bad guys" in the terror war is the WILLINGNESS to intentional harm innocents that aren't involved in the war (suicide bombings at non-military targets).
There is nothing that can justify, especially religious or national, the INTENTIONAL killing of innocents. Friendly fire and non-combatant deaths are a byproduct of war, wish it wasn't, but sadly it will happen. You do everything in your power to avoid it, and it damn well better be accidental if it does occur. The line is the intentional and willing killing of innocents. For the Nazis, the entire Jewish race was innocents. For Tiger Force, it was the women and children. For me, the minute your "righteousness" allows you to bomb a non-military/innocent site and kill civilians that aren't involved in your "war", then you've crossed the line and the gloves are off. I'm not saying to just go in and go nuts in civilian areas, of course different tactics are called for. |
07-14-2009, 12:30 PM | #7488 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
|
Don't want to add to the quasi-political discussion (getting warned once was enough for me), but I highly recommend watching Fog of War (it's available on DVD). It's a documentary/retrospective on the life and career of former US Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. It features the late McNamara's insights through frank interviews. Here's a partial list of McNamara's "lessons" from the DVD that I think applies to the points raised in our discussions:
Quote:
- The human race will not eliminate war in this century, but we can reduce the brutality of war—the level of killing—by adhering to the principles of a "Just War," in particular to the principle of "proportionality."
- We are the most powerful nation in the world—economically, politically, and militarily—and we are likely to remain so for decades ahead. But we are not omniscient. If we cannot persuade other nations with similar interests and similar values of the merits of the proposed use of that power, we should not proceed unilaterally except in the unlikely requirement to defend directly the continental U.S., Alaska and Hawaii. - War is a blunt instrument by which to settle disputes between or within nations, and economic sanctions are rarely effective. Therefore, we should build a system of jurisprudence based on the International Court—that the U.S. has refused to support—which would hold individuals responsible for crimes against humanity. - If we are to deal effectively with terrorists across the globe, we must develop a sense of empathy—I don't mean "sympathy," but rather "understanding"—to counter their attacks on us and the Western World. |
07-14-2009, 12:42 PM | #7489 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,157
|
Tread lightly fellas. You may be wandering into dangerous territory. A few days ago, someone on another thread called this one out as being wildly off-topic, wondering why it hasn't been spammed and shut down. This thread is rapidly approaching 10,000 posts. I'd hate to see it get yanked now. Best to fly under the radar.
Just a friendly suggestion. |
07-14-2009, 12:51 PM | #7490 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
|
Someone called it out? That's too funny.
So less political, but who would be the Joe to go "rogue"? That gets tired of playing by the rules when the enemy doesn't and decides to go off the reservation. Now, look at it two ways... 1 - Goes completely off the reservation and ends up working for Cobra 2 - Still a "good" guy, just uses extreme methods And this is back "on topic" (lol) since uses the filecard to determine personality, lol. I have to give it some thought.
__________________
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