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07-13-2009, 09:13 PM | #7471 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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I remember there was an attack on the PIT location in Utah and they had the warning from Minh (who called looking for Lt. Falcon) and the Joes moved the quonset huts so Cobra attacked those.
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07-13-2009, 11:37 PM | #7472 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Hey, I just finished reading Tiger Force by Sallah and Weiss and I'd recommend it to anyone who really wants to see how truly heinous the crimes of some its members truly were.
Oliver, I think you would quickly change your previous statement after reading this book. I agree that war is hell and terrible things happen, but Tiger Force was an example of deliberate and malicious attack against civilians--the very people that Americans were supposed to protect in the first place. That's not a soldier's duty, and I think American soldiers should be held to a higher standard. The Nuremberg Trials set the precedent for war crimes and why soldiers need the proper supervision and leadership to avoid committing war crimes, which do not win wars. In fact, killing civilians, if anything, compels the survivors of such victims to join the enemy ranks or act as their eyes and ears. This book is really a must read. I can't explain how important it is. The men that stand out the most are Lt Wood and Sgt Bruner, who were among the few who attempted to stop the atrocities, which shows that some men had the courage to stand up to their peers and commanders, in the face of possible court martial and at the risk of getting fragged by one of your own. In my opinion, Bruner and Wood were examples of true soldiers--they knew the difference between shooting at combatants and killing old blind men and women. One TF soldier--the worst of them all--actually cut an infant's head off. Everything must have a context. Accidentally shooting a civilian is one thing, but deliberately targeting them is completely different. |
07-13-2009, 11:48 PM | #7473 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Quote:
Being reminded of Hawkins and the Song Ve Valley massacres just makes me wonder all the more about why Hasbro decided to use the "Tiger Force" name for one of the GI Joe sub-teams. Was it a case of an unfortunate coincidence, ignorance of the events surrounding the real Tiger Force unit's actions in Vietnam, or just very, very poor judgment?
Since Hasbro created TF GI Joe in 1988, I'm sure they had no idea what Tiger Force was really all about. Hell they can't even get the proper ranks right for most of the Joes. |
07-13-2009, 11:51 PM | #7474 |
Lightning IG
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hutto, Texas
Posts: 9,773
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Quote:
Monday's updates:
Cold Front & Long Range Design notes: - Cold Front is outfitted with an N3B cold weather parka. Couldn't figure out what the "leggings" were supposed to be on the original toy, so I replaced them with gaiters instead. Also updated his biographical information a bit... his original filecard states his birthplace as "Ft. Knox, Kentucky" but since most of the other Joes have incorporated census-designated population centers as their birthplaces, I updated it to "Elizabethtown, Kentucky," which is the incorporated census-designated population center co-located with Ft. Knox. - Long Range is based on Long Range v2, and not the first version. To read their full filecards, click on the Filecard Project link in my signature.
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Bring the Rain!! |
07-14-2009, 10:09 AM | #7475 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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I need to check out that Tiger Force book Tank. The thing with the Tiger Force unit is it was only a platoon sized unit right? I wonder if elements of their history were incorporated into the movie Platoon.
Maybe you can answer this Tank: How long was the unit active? At what point were they committing atrocities? From the beginning? Do you think it was sort of swept under the rug due to the unit's high casualty rate? Like many of the men responsible were getting killed anyway in battle so the higher ups didn't bother prosecuting anyone. They must have known long before there was an investigation. |
07-14-2009, 10:27 AM | #7476 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Can you imagine if there were a rogue Joe Unit like Tiger Force? Sort of spice up the story line.
Who do you think would be the one to turn. Duke? Would they join Cobra? I think operations like Tiger Force and even the Phoenix program were put in motion to sort of counter the ruthlessness and brutality of Guerrilla warfare. Men were probably encouraged to be more brutal than the Vietcong. Still I think these type of operations tend to backfire in the end, since any survivors will turn against you. So in the end: Right Makes Might? |
07-14-2009, 10:33 AM | #7477 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Tiger Force was a recon platoon of 45 men in the 1st Battalion/327th Infantry of the 101st Airborne's 1st Brigade. . Created by Major David Hackworth in November 1965, the Tigers were primarily a search and destroy unit.
The Tigers really didn't lose control until a seven-month period between May and November of 1967. The process of killing and torturing civilians was gradual. The men slowly began to lose control as a result of being in the bush so long, losing friends to booby traps, losing responsible leadership, and having little supervision. Interestingly, less than a dozen Tigers were killed during the time in question. The higher-ups heard rumors of Tigers collecting ears but didn't want to know if they were true. However, they had to have known that the Tigers were killing civilians because they reported hundreds of KIAs without a single weapon found. This is what should have tipped off the battalion commander, Gerald Morse, known as Ghost Rider, but he continued to order the Tigers to keep killing. In fact, he said he wanted 327 kills for the 327th Infantry. Officers got promoted for the number of kills their men had. Ghost Rider obviously knew and refused to talk much with CID and reporters, even decades later. |
07-14-2009, 10:40 AM | #7478 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Most all of the Tigers who were investigated corroborated the war crimes, most were deeply and traumatically scarred and had difficulty talking about that time in their lives, most were remorseful and relied on drugs and alcohol to cope. Only two, Lt Hawkins and Sgt Doyle, believed they were truly justified in killing civilians. Hawkins believed that because the area was a free-fire zone he could "kill anything that moved" and Doyle said his only regret was that "he didn't kill more Vietnamese." Sam Ybarra--the soldier whose act of killing an infant prompted the investigation--was the most ruthless member of the unit but even he later expressed some sorrow for his actions. He died of cirrohis of the liver from severe alcoholism.
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07-14-2009, 10:42 AM | #7479 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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I think it depends on the motivation to go "rogue" and carry out these atrocities. If they're doing it because you get off on it, then yeah, would go Cobra, but if doing it because they feel it's the only way to get the job done, then they're still fighting the good fight but now firmly believe "the ends justify the means".
Sometimes, I think you do need to fight fire with fire. I think our biggest problem with the "war on terror" is that we think in terms of battles and armies and rules of engagement. When you're dealing with people ready to commit suicide to blow up some others, that's a different kind of mindset that we're just not prepared to face. The war on terror is a psychological war. And it will only ever be won when the Islamic world starts policing themselves. Not meaning to single out just that group of terrorists (since there are lots of others in the world). Dropping an Army into the area ends up working against you. You have to be as quick and as mobile as the enemy. If they fight guerilla style, you have to fight guerilla style. Take the Israelis for example. That is one tiny little country, that if united against 'em, the Middle Eastern countries could easily take out (not getting into allies and all that, just one on one). But the other countries are afraid of 'em. If their allies weren't holding 'em back, I think the Israelis would have gone "Munich" on alot of those terrorist groups by now. The problem is.. well, it's like this.. I have a friend, she (for what ever reason) cannot see that she does wrong. For example, if she does something to someone and then that person does it back to her, she can't make the connection that her actions may have caused it or that even though the other person is still wrong, she can't really get that upset with them. But she doesn't see that she did wrong, it's okay for her to do whatever she wants, but it's not okay for people to do the same to her. Does that make sense? That's the Islamic Terrorists, they think they're right in their actions, so no matter what, even reprisals, they don't make the connection that if they hadn't bombed first, then the Israeli's wouldn't have bombed second. So where do you draw the line? I think Tiger Force stepped over it when they started actions against women, children and non-combatants. But the idea of a unit that has "carte blanche" isn't that bad an idea. I think after 911 we took the wrong track, we didn't react quick enough and hard enough. Instead of asking permission from the UN, should have just went in and wiped Al Quada off the face of the map and then gone to the UN and said "they started it." I don't think anything should ever be done to non-combatants, that's going over the line. But an enemy combatant, the gloves are off. Especially those willing to target civilians.
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Join the New England G.I. Joe Collector's Group: Battleforce New England Join the March of Cobra. Read the epic adventure on Kindle Worlds and visit the page to learn more. https://www.facebook.com/marchofcobra/ Last edited by Troynos; 07-14-2009 at 10:44 AM.. |
07-14-2009, 10:46 AM | #7480 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Really. I figured someone knew. I mean these were all probably very young men for the most part. 22 and younger? Sort of has that Lord of the Flies/Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now feel to it. They were active until 72 right? So did they pull these guys back in at the end of 67 and replace them? Or did the same guys get just a stern talking to and sent back out in the bush?
The unit as a whole had a high casualty rate didn't it? How many officers went through that unit? It's led just by one Lt. right Hawkins. |
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