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06-29-2009, 02:55 PM | #7171 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Reed also comes up with an interesting premise in the article I linked to and in other related articles he's written. He's stated on multiple occasions that the excessively stringent physical training standards for qualification and entry into certain elite units has a negative effect on the make-up and demographics of elite units. Sure, it weeds out those physically unfit for special operations duties, but it also biases against those who are smart enough to know that putting men's lives at undue risk in an effort to simulate outdated battle conditions in training is a counterproductive exercise in masochism.
Thus, according to Reed, the qualification regimen makes it so that it allows for the entry of the physically fit who are inherently masochists and/or those whose instincts for self-preservation are misplaced or underdeveloped (and a soldier who has a latent "death wish" tendency -- whether it be motivated by unthinking pseudo-patriotism, a lack of intelligence, or a neurosis -- is as much a liability as a soldier who's ready to turn and run at the first sign of real combat). I don't agree with him totally on this point, but I think it helps to explain to some degree why some of the most egregious examples of everything from harmless eccentricities to maladaptive social behaviour to outright sociopathic/psychopathic behaviour in the Armed Forces occasionally involve military personnel (not just US Armed Forces, but across the board internationally) trained as part of designated "special operations forces." Last edited by zuludelta; 06-29-2009 at 02:58 PM.. |
06-29-2009, 03:00 PM | #7172 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,235
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Speaking of misperceptions, does anyone remember the Eco Challenge of 1997 in Australia? One of the competing teams consisted of US Navy SEALs and everyone thought they were going to clean house but they actually failed one of the water events, which should have been a cake walk for SEALs. Heres an article:
Navy Seals Rescued from Ocean Kayaking Event Tuesday, August 19, 1997 -- 4pm AUS Team Odyssey was rescued by helicopter this afternoon off the far north Queensland coast, near Fitzroy Island on the final 50 mile sea kayaking leg. The event's rescue helicopter crew saved all four members of the team, after they radioed race management for assistance. They were winched from the sea and returned to the Eco-Challenge medical center in Bramston Beach (Camp 3). Three of the team members, Nate Smith and Joe Bell of Coronado, California, and Christoper Haggerty of Rockville, Maryland are all members of the elite US Navy Seals. The fourth team member, Juli Lynch of Nashotah, Wisconsin is a corporate development consultant. All four team members are safe after receiving treatment at Bramston Beach. |
06-29-2009, 03:08 PM | #7173 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,235
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Quote:
Reed also comes up with an interesting premise in the article I linked to and in other related articles he's written. He's stated on multiple occasions that the excessively stringent physical training standards for qualification and entry into certain elite units has a negative effect on the make-up and demographics of elite units. Sure, it weeds out those physically unfit for special operations duties, but it also biases against those who are smart enough to know that putting men's lives at undue risk in an effort to simulate outdated battle conditions in training is a counterproductive exercise in masochism.
Thus, according to Reed, the qualification regimen makes it so that it allows for the entry of the physically fit who are inherently masochists and/or those whose instincts for self-preservation are misplaced or underdeveloped (and a soldier who has a latent "death wish" tendency -- whether it be motivated by unthinking pseudo-patriotism, a lack of intelligence, or a neurosis -- is as much a liability as a soldier who's ready to turn and run at the first sign of real combat). I don't agree with him totally on this point, but I think it helps to explain to some degree why some of the most egregious examples of everything from harmless eccentricities to maladaptive social behaviour to outright sociopathic/psychopathic behaviour in the Armed Forces occasionally involve military personnel (not just US Armed Forces, but across the board internationally) trained as part of designated "special operations forces." |
06-29-2009, 03:22 PM | #7174 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanksmasher
Speaking of misperceptions, does anyone remember the Eco Challenge of 1997 in Australia? One of the competing teams consisted of US Navy SEALs and everyone thought they were going to clean house but they actually failed one of the water events, which should have been a cake walk for SEALs.
The thing is, if the media and Navy Public Affairs actually did a fair job of presenting the SEALs as what they actually are -- underwater demolitionists cross-trained in airborne insertion and small unit direct action/special reconnaissance, and not "super-sailors" -- their losing in the Eco-Challenge shouldn't have been all that surprising and shouldn't have become the minor embarrassment that it turned out to be (the Rangers also sent a team... IIRC, they managed to finish, but were nowhere near the top of the standings). Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanksmasher
... forcing men to eat less than 2000 calories a day and suffer hyperthermia seems like unnecessary endangerment. The point of training should be to avoid going without food and sleep because these things severely reduce combat effectiveness and further put lives at risk. Pushing them to extremes doesn't always guarantee that they'll be conditioned to survive; it just means they know what to expect.
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06-30-2009, 12:52 AM | #7175 |
G.I.Joe medic
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Litchfield, ME
Posts: 3,169
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So, with all that said, what makes a Joe a Joe? What sets these people apart from the rest of the Armed Forces? I mean, we know they aren't "supermen" or "super soldiers", so what makes them the best? What qualities do they have that others don't? This has been on my mind for some time now.
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06-30-2009, 09:43 AM | #7176 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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I kind of like what Hama did in Declassified, when Hawk was recruiting the Original 13. They each had a different characteristic beyond military training that made them different and made them pop out.
In sports they call it "intangibles", those unseen things that set each person apart. Besides skill level, what makes QBs different from eachother? So each Joe, besides being the best of the best in their respective fields, would have an "intangible" that sets them apart from others of comparable/measureable skills. Could be something weird like Airborne's "eye that sees" (or whatever that is in his filecard) or something like Trackers ability track even Spirit and Snake-Eyes.
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06-30-2009, 12:24 PM | #7177 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Quote:
So, with all that said, what makes a Joe a Joe? What sets these people apart from the rest of the Armed Forces? I mean, we know they aren't "supermen" or "super soldiers", so what makes them the best? What qualities do they have that others don't? This has been on my mind for some time now.
But more importantly, it's not so much the individual qualities of the singular Joes that make the GI Joe team the ultimate CT response team, it's the combination and diversity of professional backgrounds of the team members. One thing, I think, that's plagued the USSOCOM and JSOC effort is the almost adolescent branch territoriality they involve. One of the motivations behind the creation of JSOC is that it was supposed to be an antidote to the problems faced by any large organization (regardless of whether that organization is military, corporate, or non-profit civilian). One of those problems is bureaucracy. There's just so much paperwork and red tape involved in organizing a joint counterterrorist response. I'm not privy to the details of JSOC's administrative workings, but let's assume that they've got the whole bureaucracy thing licked. There is still the problem of what I call "intellectual & perceptual insularity." The problem, in any organization, with getting people from the same backgrounds, is that they tend to come up with similar solutions to a given problem. A bunch of Army guys (say 1st SFOD-D) will typically come up with an "Army" solution to a given tactical challenge. A bunch of Navy guys (let's say DEVGRU) will have their own Navy-centric take on a best response. The problem with both approaches is that they might miss on elements found outside their respective perceptual and intellectual tracks, elements that can provide a more efficient and/or ultimately superior tactical reaction. In my (amateur) attempts at force organization, I'm hoping that the GI Joe team can overcome those branch-specific limitations. |
06-30-2009, 12:30 PM | #7178 |
G.I.Joe medic
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Litchfield, ME
Posts: 3,169
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I guess that's what I was looking for. It has to be some sort of personality traits that they have that makes them unique. I loved what Hama did in Declassified, and I wish he'd do more of that sort of thing.
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06-30-2009, 12:43 PM | #7179 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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That's a true take on things Zulu. Even outside of the military, people tend to think to what they know and their own strengths. So you get the "army solution" because the Army guys don't know any other way to do things, same with Navy and so forth.
An Army commander isn't going to know the best way to write up a mission that involves army and navy components. So really you would need an organization outside the normal DoD that is completely joint but at the same time be it's own unit and trained to coexist. So when they become a Joe, they're no longer army/navy/air force/marines, they are a Joe. Being a unit like that, with thinking that they are all one unit, would allow them to look at a mission profile with all the different elements available to them and how best to utilize those elements in conjunction with the others.
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06-30-2009, 08:49 PM | #7180 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Quote:
So, with all that said, what makes a Joe a Joe? What sets these people apart from the rest of the Armed Forces? I mean, we know they aren't "supermen" or "super soldiers", so what makes them the best? What qualities do they have that others don't? This has been on my mind for some time now.
But really how would you even know who these guys are? How would you find them? You would need to depend on other Unit commanders to open your eyes to these guys. Maybe you could comb levenworth for guys who, while doing their jobs got a raw deal somehow, and ended up in the stockade. So you give them a way out. Like the Dirty Dozen, but not unlike what happened to Hawk and Stalker in declassified. Or more like the French Foreign legion? But then the Joe training would have to be beyond compare. Something we've never really discussed much either. What is Joe training? Or what should it be? It can't just be SGt. Slaughter making you do pushups. But I suppose if he made you do pushups while the Fridge sat on your back.... |
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