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06-16-2009, 01:06 PM | #6891 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Quote:
I don't think it should be Joe = Delta. I think it should be Joe > Delta. GI Joe is sort of like an elite joint task force that recruits the best people from the Navy, Army, Air Force, Marines and even Coast Guard. Joe consists of SEALs and SEAL Team 6, Marine Force Recon, Special Forces, Delta, SOAR, Rangers, PJs and other elite units. If Delta is the public face, Joe is the true secret task force. Joes are even more individualistic than Delta, with personal customized weapons and uniforms, long hair and mustaches, women operating in combat roles, and with more autonomy. Joe is the creme de la creme of the military.
I would still love to know more of the SAD guys from the CIA, but the joes as a quick reaction Company sort of needs to fall under DOD. I guess there must be a way for it to work. Wasn't there a post way back where someone broke down the Joes and how they would work in regards to government oversite and why they have so much cutting edge/ questionable technology? |
06-16-2009, 01:11 PM | #6892 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,754
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Yeah, I think I linked it from the Canadian Joe Club newsletter.
It's the 1000 dollar hammers. That's what pays for the Joe team, lol.
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06-16-2009, 01:15 PM | #6893 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
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Yeah where is that link? It was a pretty good explanation.
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06-16-2009, 01:25 PM | #6894 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,754
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Back 300 pages or so, lol.
Also, having the Joes exist as the unit above Delta and Devgru and such, it gives reasons for the Joes having a representative from each department/branch to serve as liasons and bring that departments specialized knowledge.
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06-16-2009, 01:25 PM | #6895 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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So I finished a good book called Recondo about LRRPs in the 101st and Recondo School at Nha Trang. These recon guys, unlike regular infantry, were more precisely the tip of the spear. These six-man teams (sometimes 12) would live in the bush for 5 to 7 days, often within spitting distance of NVA battalions. They were expected to hide and observe the enemy until it was time for exfiltration and then conduct an ambush. So they would actually make contact with the enemy, engage in a brief firefight and then hightail it to the LZ.
The LRP company was often understrength too and had to recruit many volunteers--men who had just arrived in Vietnam after BCT and AIT with no formal LRRP training. So recon teams would go on a mission with FNGs or newbies. The Recondo School training was pretty interesting. It was three weeks long. During the first day of the first week the men would run 2 miles with a 40 pound rucksack. By the seventh day--according to Larry Chambers--they had to run 9 miles in 90 minutes with 100 pounds of sand and equipment strapped on. They carried their weapons and everything they would normally carry with them into the bush just in case they got ambushed by VC on their runs. The School also accepted volunteers from the Marines and SEALs and foreign services (Thailand and S Korea). On the third week, they had to go on a recon mission, and though this made the school renowned for being the toughest school around, it should be noted that most of the people in recon school were LRRPs or had gone on recon missions before and had seen combat, so it's not as if they were green recruits going out into the bush for the first time. Now I'm reading about Tiger Force and the exploits of the most notorious unit in Vietnam. These guys apparently were pretty ruthless. Last edited by Tanksmasher; 06-16-2009 at 01:35 PM.. |
06-16-2009, 01:56 PM | #6896 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Just got caught up reading everybody's responses to the recent topic of Low-Light as a Scout-Sniper and GI Joe's relationship to Delta and DEVGRU. Interesting ideas everyone. Makes me glad I opened up the filecard project and reference bible project to external suggestions as I'm working on them, instead of working in isolation and then taking in all the suggestions after I've "officially" released it and incorporating them in a later edition.
As MT mentioned, I had initially envisioned remaking Low-Light as a Marine Scout Sniper (no offense to any Army shooters out there, but come on, everybody knows the Marine Scout/Snipers have the most comprehensive "out-of-the-box" baseline marksmanship and fieldcraft training). But giving it more thought, I think it's possible for him to be Marine scout-sniper qualified and still retain his original design intent as an Army guy. The Army issues an Additional Skill Identifier (ASI) known as W3 ("Special Forces Target Interdiction Operations") to Army SF Weapons Sergeants (MOS 18B) and SF Engineer Sergeants (MOS 18C) who've either taken the Special Operations Target Interdiction Course ("hard target interdiction") in Ft. Bragg or the USMC Scout/Sniper Course at Quantico. Although I've never heard of any SF guys who've actually cross-trained as Marine Scout/Snipers, the fact that the Army's MOS classification pamphlet explicitly spells out that graduation from the Marine Scout/Sniper Course is one of the possible qualifying requirements for award of the W3 ASI, to me, is an indication that it's been done before or at least, that it's possible to do so. Note that this ASI is only available to MOS 18B and 18C, and I think they have to be at a rank of E-7 or higher. Also note that this is different from the B4 ASI ("Sniper"), which is given to infantrymen who've taken the Ft. Benning Sniper course. As for the Joe team's position in the USSOCOM community with respect to Delta and DEVGRU, I'd like to think of the Joes not as a replacement for either unit, but as a complementary joint CT unit. While Delta and DEVGRU are more branch-centric in terms of their mission profiles and capabilities, GI Joe would be the CT unit tasked with counter-terrorism missions that require extensive branch interoperability and organic aviation assets. That's also why I still have Hawk listed as an O-6/Colonel (instead of the more popular O-7/Brigadier General that came later), to keep the Joe team in parallel and on the same hierarchical level as DEVGRU (which is also commanded by an O-6) within JSOC. |
06-16-2009, 02:14 PM | #6897 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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I looked can't find it. I felt like I saved that somewhere but I don't see it.
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06-16-2009, 02:27 PM | #6898 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Quote:
I think Tiger Force's criminal actions in Vietnam are a black mark on the history of the US Army and proof that "fighting fire with fire" leads to more innocents suffering and does more damage to the Armed Forces in the long run. Soldiers have to be "better" than the enemy and have to be held to a much much higher ethical and legal standard. Otherwise, it just makes the point for military contrarians that soldiers are nothing more than "legally-empowered terrorists." No less than Army CID confirmed that Tiger Force committed numerous war crimes in the summer of 1967 (including, but not limited to rape, torture, and infanticide), based on their own investigations and the reports of American soldiers who served alongside and with Tiger Force. Why nobody at the staff or corps level bothered to act on CID's findings (CID finished their investigation and released their report in 1975) is a war crime in itself (a "crime of omission," but a crime nonetheless). The one thing we can probably take solace in is that the Army is finally re-opening CID's case files on Tiger Force and maybe they can finally prosecute those responsible for the atrocities they committed. I'm also hopeful and confident that nothing like the Tiger Force debacle will happen again, at least not with the implicit permission of command. Psychological screening for entry into SF and the SEALs has been redesigned since the 1960s, such that those with sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies are already weeded out before training. Last edited by zuludelta; 06-16-2009 at 03:17 PM.. |
06-16-2009, 03:15 PM | #6899 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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from http://www.socom.mil/family_readines...ce%20Guide.pdf No idea how current this is but you even get Chaplain service broken down. I see how they have SES as part of the Command structure. The SCOS is the part we're most interested in. SCSO - Center for Special Operations - Executes USSOCOM's global and enduring responsibilities as the DoD lead to plan, prepare, direct, and execute the command's mission. (J2/Intelligence, J3/Operations, J5/Plans). |
06-16-2009, 03:20 PM | #6900 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Quote:
Give me a few minutes and I'll post part of the diagram I've made for GI Joe's fictional place within USSOCOM's hierarchy (was saving it up for when I put everything together, but since we're already talking about it, might as well). Last edited by zuludelta; 06-16-2009 at 03:25 PM.. |
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