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05-28-2009, 01:30 PM | #5871 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,754
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Quote:
Hey man, I hear you. But the thing about Duke that really bothers me is how they've written him in the Marvel and DDP series... and who knows how he'll turn out in IDW and the movie (although, in the movie, I hear he's going to be an officer... WHAT?!)
Anyway, as I've said before about Falcon, he never got the attention and development as a character that Hasbro intended. Hama didn't like Duke from the start. He felt that Hasbro pushed the character on him, and that he already had Hawk and Stalker... he didn't need some Hawk look-alike doing Stalker's job. DDP used him as an ex-Secret Agent whose rank was now on the GS scale... that's not Duke. I think Hasbro intended him to be an excellent NCO. Stalker wasn't really intended to do that job, but Hama needed a guy for that role in the beginning, and of the characters he had, he chose Stalker and developed him. Like Falcon, if Duke had been written and handled like Hasbro originally intended - as an Airborne Infantry NCO - then we would all probably like him just fine. In fact, we would probably all think of him as one of our favorites. Look at his credentials, Look at his qualifications... the guy won the Medal of Honor. Deep down, I don't think we hate Duke for who he is; I think Hama tricked us all into hating Duke because he found the character inconvenient. If you read the exploits of Duke in the Marvel run, he should have been releaved of duty early on. Hama's Flint was also a real tool/prick. In all honesty, I think the Cartoon was a much better source for Duke and Flint's personalities. They're likable and competent. Hama played favorites. And so, great characters like Duke, Flint, and Falcon end up looking like schmucks in the Marvel run - and on into DDP. But yeah, Hama didn't give any of 'em the due they deserved. But then the cartoon glorified Duke more then it should have. The cartoon made the situation we face now, with Duke being the figurehead and "known" leader of the Joe team, where in reality he's just the Top Sarge.
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05-28-2009, 01:32 PM | #5872 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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I'm with you guys on the DDP run. I consider them to be one and the same through America's Elite. It was as good as much of the Marvel Run. Some issues are sort of rushed. I quite enjoyed the random characters that showed up. And I liked most of the DDP characters we got. Skullbuster, Overlord, Kamakura, Claymore, Mercer, Alexander Destro, Firewall, Mayday and even Blackout. Although the Stall family tree didn't add to the story much, but it was brief. The Red Shadows was a cool idea but that got rushed and the ending was confusing before America's elite. Hawk in a wheelchair I hated. Plague was cool. The second Cobra Civil war was good. Gen Rey i liked but parts didn't add up.
I myself did not have a problem with Duke going Secret Agent, because he is the best at what he does so a guy like that doesn't go unnoticed. I've incorporated the Government Agent Duke into my joeverse hence he is a 0-7 equivalent. Declassified were good except, Snake Eyes. Just doesn't work at all. It's like seeing your grandma naked. You wish you didn't. Frontline was pretty good. I didn't like the snow issues. I like their Special Missions though. Reloaded I couldn't stand. Master and apprentice were good I think. I like Storm Shadow Declassified, but it was less appealing than the master and apprentice ones. |
05-28-2009, 01:35 PM | #5873 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hope, ME
Posts: 4,732
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Quote:
Given that he was getting a new roster to work with once a year, I think Hama did okay.
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05-28-2009, 01:38 PM | #5874 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,754
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If I was to redo Joe I'd ground in more today and more of the anti-terrorist feel. I'd keep SE mute and masked but he'd be more "off the books" and wouldn't make appearances or be part of major missions (unless it was in the background doing his own thing).
I started writing a Joe Reimagined along those lines. Trimmed the unit down to 30-40 Spec Ops operatives and totally covert. Made Cobra into less of an army and more of a Motivational Force behind all the terrorist activity in the world and the Joe team was formed to combat this shadow organization. I'd lose the armor/air elements (except Wild Bill) or just use the smaller things (Armadillo, Skyhawk, Vamp, etc..). The things that dont' require large crews and are easy to move around. I'd have 'em all be experienced somehow, either in wars or "off the book" operations.
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05-28-2009, 01:38 PM | #5875 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hope, ME
Posts: 4,732
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Quote:
Anyway, as I've said before about Falcon, he never got the attention and development as a character that Hasbro intended. Hama didn't like Duke from the start. He felt that Hasbro pushed the character on him, and that he already had Hawk and Stalker... he didn't need some Hawk look-alike doing Stalker's job.
DDP used him as an ex-Secret Agent whose rank was now on the GS scale... that's not Duke. I think Hasbro intended him to be an excellent NCO. Stalker wasn't really intended to do that job, but Hama needed a guy for that role in the beginning, and of the characters he had, he chose Stalker and developed him. Like Falcon, if Duke had been written and handled like Hasbro originally intended - as an Airborne Infantry NCO - then we would all probably like him just fine. In fact, we would probably all think of him as one of our favorites. Look at his credentials, Look at his qualifications... the guy won the Medal of Honor. Deep down, I don't think we hate Duke for who he is; I think Hama tricked us all into hating Duke because he found the character inconvenient. If you read the exploits of Duke in the Marvel run, he should have been releaved of duty early on. Hama's Flint was also a real tool/prick. In all honesty, I think the Cartoon was a much better source for Duke and Flint's personalities. They're likable and competent. Hama played favorites. And so, great characters like Duke, Flint, and Falcon end up looking like schmucks in the Marvel run - and on into DDP. I don't really get the feeling that Hama disliked Duke, just that he preferred to be using Stalker in that role, since he was already established. And frankly, I don't hate Duke, but I prefer Stalker. Why do you think Duke would've been relieved? As I mentioned, I liked the way he portrayed Flint. Particularly in his later appearances.
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05-28-2009, 01:40 PM | #5876 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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Quote:
I'd probaably leave Vietnam in the backstory of characters like Snake Eyes, and either tell stories set in the 80s or create the current crop of Joes. Charlie Beckwith may have founded Delta Force, but he's not running it these days - you could the same with the Joes.
And yeah, I'd leave Snake Eyes mute and not show his face. (Or at least have it be more screwed up than MD Bright drew it in the Snake Eyes trilogy) |
05-28-2009, 01:40 PM | #5877 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
So if you could redo GI Joe, what major elements would you change? Would SE still be mute? Would he always be faceless? If so, how would you change the backstory? And what about the fact that Vietnam can no longer serve as combat experience for a modern series of thirty-something soldiers? Vietnam was very much a character-shaping element in Hama's Joeverse. Sure there's Desert Storm but Vietnam was something bigger, more controversial, and it shadowed American culture like a vulture.
I guess, I would start where Zuludelta has started. I would want to look seriously at qualifications. I would want a more diverse Joe team: more Marines, More USAF Spec Ops, more Coast Guard, etc. and I would want a much bigger role for Intelligence Operatives. The kind of thing Chuckles does would play a much bigger role if it were up to me. Zuludelta's done an amazing job. If I were trying to write a Joe novel, I would definitely want to consult with him... but I think for the comic/novel series to be sustainable, I would have to go deeper. Hama took the point of view of an enlisted soldier. I think I would look at it a little differently. I would tell the stories more through eyes of the officers and senior NCOs. I would try to think how the soldier's qualifications, home towns, education, and training would influence their characterization. I would make Duke the CSM - and he would act like an Airborne Infantry CSM. I would make Flint a Special Forces Warrant - and he would act like it. I would pay more attention to the officiers and develop them as characters... stories are about decisions and the actions that take place as a result. Good Officers make those decisions and lead those actions... So I want to know more about Claymore, Falcon, Rapid Fire, Grid-Iron, Sub-Zero, Super Trooper, Psyche-Out, etc. I would also use a very well developed chain of command and stick to it. I would try to do the same with Cobra. I think what makes any Fantasy/Sci-Fi storyline work for a long time is that you have to create a world that makes sense within it's own guidelines... this is no real revelation: Continuity is important, and so is strong character development. I think if I were going to invite readers into my world, and I wanted them to stay, I need to be upfront about what the rules of the world are, and stick with them. And if I want adults to participate, I need a world that is plausibly complicated and systematically makes sense. They also need to feel connected to the characters - and that means being able to relate to them. Also, I would cut way down on the Ninja Soap-Opera. 'Cause that crap is annoying.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
05-28-2009, 01:44 PM | #5878 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,754
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Quote:
I still think that Special Missions was the kind of Joe stories that Hama truly wanted to tell.
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05-28-2009, 01:46 PM | #5879 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,754
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Because of the terrorist threat nowadays, and everything being geared that way, Homeland Security and Coast Guard and such units would have a bigger role in the Joe force of today.
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05-28-2009, 01:46 PM | #5880 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,224
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Quote:
If I was to redo Joe I'd ground in more today and more of the anti-terrorist feel. I'd keep SE mute and masked but he'd be more "off the books" and wouldn't make appearances or be part of major missions (unless it was in the background doing his own thing).
I started writing a Joe Reimagined along those lines. Trimmed the unit down to 30-40 Spec Ops operatives and totally covert. Made Cobra into less of an army and more of a Motivational Force behind all the terrorist activity in the world and the Joe team was formed to combat this shadow organization. I'd lose the armor/air elements (except Wild Bill) or just use the smaller things (Armadillo, Skyhawk, Vamp, etc..). The things that dont' require large crews and are easy to move around. I'd have 'em all be experienced somehow, either in wars or "off the book" operations. However, I would revisit and revise how the original Joes were recruited. I always enjoyed learning about how each Joe made the team. I also think I might start the first couple issues with the original 13, but in a modernized fashion, to pay homage to Hama. |
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