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05-27-2009, 01:24 PM | #5791 |
#voteblackjack
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My understanding is that this is exactly right, in a nutshell. They were formed to be a Naval Infantry. An "Army-like" force that was trained to deploy from, and operate out of, a ship or aquatic environment. To be fair, when a SEAL steps on land to start some kind of Commando mission, he's more soldier than sailor. And my question is why? Why would the Navy make Sailors into SEALs, when it already had Marines that could have easily been trained in Scuba diving and met the Navy's mission requirements.
It's like saying, "Hey, we need some trucks. I know we've got these jeeps over here and we could use most of their parts, but I'm thinking we should start with these life boats. Yeah, we'll just make Trucks out of these life boats. Leave the jeeps alone." And maybe that's why there is no real Marine Spec-Op force. Maybe the general thinking is that if you have the SEaLs, why do you need Marines that are further trained? I don't know. It is weird that SEaLs start as sailors. Really, SEaLs should be part of the Marines.
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05-27-2009, 01:32 PM | #5792 |
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I never really understood why the Navy SEALs were even a part of the Navy. I mean, let's see, The Navy needed a group of highly trained commandos for special missions that involve water...
hmmm, should we start with regular sailors who get practically no combat training, or should we start with Marines who are specifically designed for amphibious warfare? ... I mean, what can a SEAL do that a good Recon Marine can't? Back then, Marines basically were the equivalent of the Expeditionary Warfare Enlisted Specialists (sailors trained in land navigation and amphibious combat) that the Navy has now. UDTs were ordnance clearance divers and combat demolition experts. After the war, the USMC's role grew drastically and it became, for training and mission intents and purposes, a service independent of the US Navy (eventually developing their own "special operations" unit in Force Recon). The USMC's expansion and move towards operational independence however, left a gap in the Navy's operational capabilities. This was filled by an expansion of the role played by the UDTs (and to some extent, the Seabees). The UDTs would eventually develop into two related but distinct communities: the Naval Special Warfare community (SEALs and Special Boat Teams) and the Naval Special Operations community (Navy EOD and the Navy Fleet Divers). So you could say that Force Recon and Naval Special Warfare ended up developing in parallel to fill equivalent needs, and that's why there seems to be a lot of similarities between the two in terms of operational characteristics. Last edited by zuludelta; 05-27-2009 at 01:38 PM.. |
05-27-2009, 01:35 PM | #5793 |
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Exactly.
And maybe that's why there is no real Marine Spec-Op force. Maybe the general thinking is that if you have the SEaLs, why do you need Marines that are further trained? I don't know. It is weird that SEaLs start as sailors. Really, SEaLs should be part of the Marines. To my mind, the Marine Raiders should have never been disbanded after the War, and they could have been developed into the Navy's Special Operations Force. If the Navy had needed some specialty divers, so be it, but this business of amphibious commandos should have been left to the Marines.
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05-27-2009, 01:35 PM | #5794 |
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True - however, we have more "SEALs" than those three just in the first few months of RoC (Deep Six, Shipwreck, Wet Down) and the 7-pack (Wet Suit) - and yeah, I know most of them are really just divers. ;) As has been pointed out here many times, the marines are seriously lacking in figures.
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05-27-2009, 01:37 PM | #5795 |
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I could agree with that statement. Once "on the ground," there probably wouldn't be too much to differentiate a Marine rifleman platoon from an Airborne infantry platoon. They'd be using more or less the same time-proven and battlefield-tested light infantry fire and movement principles.
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05-27-2009, 01:46 PM | #5796 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
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Quote:
I could agree with that statement. Once "on the ground," there probably wouldn't be too much to differentiate a Marine rifleman platoon from an Airborne infantry platoon. They'd be using more or less the same time-proven and battlefield-tested light infantry fire and movement principles.
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05-27-2009, 01:56 PM | #5797 |
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One thing I think that is "diluting" the experienced expert status of the SEAL community is the Navy's recent decision to open up the SEALs to recruits. Prior to this, a sailor thinking of becoming a SEAL would first have to graduate from an "A" school before he could even start BUD/S training. It couldn't just be any "A" school either, it had to be one of the following:
- Aviation Boatswain's Mate Equipment (ABE) - Aviation Ordnance man (AO) - Boatswain's Mate (BM) - Electrician's Mate (EM) - Engine man (EN) - Electronics Technician (ET) - Gunner's Mate (Guns / Missiles) (GMG/GMM) - Hospital Corpsman (HM) - Hull Technician (HT) - Interior Communications Technician (IC) - Intelligence Specialist (IS) - Machinist's Mate (MM) - Machinery Repairman (MR) - Operations Specialist (OS) - Photographer's Mate (PH) - Personnel man (PN) - Parachute Rigger (PR) - Quartermaster (QM) - Radioman (RM) - Storekeeper (SK) - Signalman (SM) - Surface Sonar Technician (STG) - Torpedo man (TM) What made the SEALs so effective was the fact that they were technical specialists in multiple fields and not just counter-terrorism experts. Candidates already had a multiplicity of skills and experience prior to joining the SpecWar community (similar to the Army's Special Forces, which itself is undergoing a similar "dilution" with the Special Forces enlistment option allowing recruits to go straight into SF after infantryman AIT, even with no service time incurred in an infantry unit). One of the strengths of units like the SEALs and SF is the accumulated practical knowledge and drive for independent thinking of their component members. Opening these units up to younger sailors/soldiers who may be fully "school" qualified but lacking in real-world experience is something that may eventually backfire on the USSOCOM community. Last edited by zuludelta; 05-27-2009 at 01:58 PM.. |
05-27-2009, 01:58 PM | #5798 |
#voteblackjack
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It'll definately backfire. The whole point of the SpecOPs is that they are the best of the best. And you only get to be that way thru experience.
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05-27-2009, 02:04 PM | #5799 |
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Personally though, I'd rather have fewer, but better qualified and more experienced SpecWar operators rather than a lot of nominal "SpecWar operators" just a few years removed from sprouting their first armpit hairs. Last edited by zuludelta; 05-27-2009 at 02:07 PM.. |
05-27-2009, 02:08 PM | #5800 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Quote:
One of the strengths of units like the SEALs and SF is the accumulated practical knowledge and drive for independent thinking of their component members. Opening these units up to younger sailors/soldiers who may be fully "school" qualified but lacking in real-world experience is something that may eventually backfire on the USSOCOM community.
Changing the subject just a bit, I thought I would share with y'all about a figure I got a while back on ebay. I got another International figure from Brazil: Tigor. He's similar to Urzor, but Tigor came with a jungle cat instead of a bear. He's basically an orange repainted version of Recoil with Scoops legs. I'm going to use him as "Tiger Force Recoil". I'm pretty excited about him. I think Recoil will be a good fit for Tiger Force. I also picked up Tiger Force Shipwreck... he's going to drive the Tiger Force Hydrofoil. I was very glad to find him. I'm coming close to having all the International Tiger Force figures. I will be glad when my collection is complete. One other note about International figures: UK Spirit. Has anyone noticed this figure? It's v1 Spirit repainted in Night Force Colors. It's pretty cool. I'm thinking of using him with v2 Low-Light as unofficial "off the book" members of Night Force. Their paint jobs match pretty perfectly with the '88/'89 Night Force Team. And I think Spirit and Low-Light would make a great team. Troynos, you might consider this. The UK Mutt also looks like he's wearing a Night Force uniform. I know how much you like Mutt and Night Force. You might keep an eye out for one of these. You can check him out on yojoe.com.
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