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03-29-2009, 11:11 PM | #4381 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
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I'm sort of torn on what Shipwreck should be... one the one hand, I think his original filecard makes him a better fit, thematically, with the SWCCs. On the other hand, I don't think the Joes would realistically need a SWCC on their team full-time, while a SEAL would be more in-line with what types of specialists I envision the Joe team should be composed of.
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Nice work again ZD! Each evolution gets a little closer to perfection. I like the addition of the ACU camo. I would recommend just try to stick with maybe the pants camo'ed for most of the characters (except perhaps Stalker - which I think you have near perfect now - and Footloose/Leatherneck), as that is the precedent of most of the original versions.
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03-30-2009, 10:21 AM | #4382 |
#voteblackjack
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I can see the Joes needing a SWCC on the team. The SEaLs and Marines need someone that can get them in and get them out again, and be able to carry their own in a fight.
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03-30-2009, 10:35 AM | #4383 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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They are essential. I don't think that Topside can do it alone. I suppose Rampart may qualify too, but I'm not sure what his role really equates to in the real Navy. |
03-30-2009, 12:01 PM | #4384 |
EQ-Viper
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I can see a SWCC team getting attached to the Joe team on occasion, but only as the mission calls for it. I think full-time membership slots would be better reserved for more essential personnel (especially if we're concerned about keeping personnel numbers to a reasonable maximum). |
03-30-2009, 12:38 PM | #4385 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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Yeah, but a full-time SWCC detachment, though? I don't know... if we're talking about patterning the GI Joe team after small direct action units like Delta or the SEAL teams or a reinforced Ranger company, from a logistical standpoint, it just seems a little inefficient maintaining a SWCC team and their equipment and vehicles (not just the boats, but the prime movers -- the trucks and trailers --- that carry them) when not all Joe missions would require "brown water" insertion. A complement of, say, 6 small combatant craft (enough to carry a platoon of direct action operators) would probably require a separate platoon of personnel for overland transport alone (since, unlike helicopters, the boats aren't capable of independent overland self-deployment).
I can see a SWCC team getting attached to the Joe team on occasion, but only as the mission calls for it. I think full-time membership slots would be better reserved for more essential personnel (especially if we're concerned about keeping personnel numbers to a reasonable maximum). I personally envision a force that is more like 2000 members or so, with majority of the characters making up a Light infantry Company. (Rangers) Maybe a dozen or less comprising a Delta-Force like SWAT group. and another 12 Green Beret types who get cozy with the locals. You would need a Deep Recon team as well for the Force Recon and the Lrrps, but you could almost combine this squad with the Green Beret guys. You've done an excellent job of setting up your teams very similar to how I imagine they would work. But even the most elite troops need support guys. Hence my 2000. Especially if we make any room for Armor or Artillery or Aircraft. However I may argue that the SWCC guys, who are fairly elite, should be included at least as a combined naval force which includes the SEALs. They should have a very strong bond with The Joe SEALs as they would be thier ride into places where the SEALs would be best utilized. Unfortunately the Joe's SEALS are just glorified Frogman since they never take their wetsuits off. |
03-30-2009, 12:45 PM | #4386 |
#voteblackjack
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However I may argue that the SWCC guys, who are fairly elite, should be included at least as a combined naval force which includes the SEALs. They should have a very strong bond with The Joe SEALs as they would be thier ride into places where the SEALs would be best utilized. Unfortunately the Joe's SEALS are just glorified Frogman since they never take their wetsuits off.
Right, I see an SWCC guy being part of the Joe SEaL unit. The Joe elite units (rangers, marines, SEaLs) are structured to operate as independantly as possible and with little to no support. It's the armor/air/artillery that has the large support arm. So the SEaL unit would be responsible for getting themselves into and out of their mission zones, and that's where the SWCC member would come in. I see the Joes around 2000, like Loose. I have the Rangers in 4 teams, the SEaL unit, Marine unit, Deep Recon and so on. Those units are all expected to operate with no support and deep behind enemy lines.
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03-30-2009, 01:09 PM | #4387 |
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i just love all my joes I just can't have guys not included. I mean even Ninja force Guys make great gunners for various vehicles.
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03-30-2009, 01:12 PM | #4388 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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How does anybody include rampart into your Joe Verse. He seems like an unrealistic occupation but I don't know where he best fits in. He has some serious hardware, but his role seems like it would be so limited. He only had a brief inclusion in the comics that I remember and then he disappeared.
YOJOE.COM | Filecard Gallery - Rampart |
03-30-2009, 01:18 PM | #4389 |
EQ-Viper
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You've done an excellent job of setting up your teams very similar to how I imagine they would work. But even the most elite troops need support guys. Hence my 2000. Especially if we make any room for Armor or Artillery or Aircraft. However I may argue that the SWCC guys, who are fairly elite, should be included at least as a combined naval force which includes the SEALs. They should have a very strong bond with The Joe SEALs as they would be thier ride into places where the SEALs would be best utilized. Unfortunately the Joe's SEALS are just glorified Frogman since they never take their wetsuits off.
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My reasoning being that any larger than company-size, and an organization starts racking up logistical and administrative requirements at an exponential rate and becomes less capable of rapid deployment and self-contained field operational sustainability. For instance, a 6-man food service section can reasonably support a company of 250 personnel in the field for a limited amount of time (maybe 15 days, which is already longer than most DA missions). If you've got two companies, though, you'll need not only to double the number of food service personnel, but you'll also need a dedicated section of water guys (since the food service guys won't be authorized to handle/distribute the amount of water necessary to maintain 2 companies). Double that number of personnel again and you'll need to get a supply team to coordinate the stream of food and water service supplies. Double that number again and you'll need dedicated transportation assets for food and water delivery. Same goes with vehicles. At the company-level, soldiers operating the vehicles can perform first-echelon maintenance and they won't need a dedicated supply staff to source their needs (their platoon sergeants can probably do all the requisitioning for them). Going up a level again requires an exponential increase in support personnel to keep pace with the greater administrative and logistical requirements of a larger organization. |
03-30-2009, 02:00 PM | #4390 |
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I think this is where we differ (the size of the Joe team), hence our different ideas on what consitutes "essential" personnel. I see the Joe team numbering around 250 to 300 personnel, with no organic armor or artillery assets and only vertical lift assets (helicopters, no fixed wing) as the organic aviation.
My reasoning being that any larger than company-size, and an organization starts racking up logistical and administrative requirements at an exponential rate and becomes less capable of rapid deployment and self-contained field operational sustainability. For instance, a 6-man food service section can reasonably support a company of 250 personnel in the field for a limited amount of time (maybe 15 days, which is already longer than most DA missions). If you've got two companies, though, you'll need not only to double the number of food service personnel, but you'll also need a dedicated section of water guys (since the food service guys won't be authorized to handle/distribute the amount of water necessary to maintain 2 companies). Double that number of personnel again and you'll need to get a supply team to coordinate the stream of food and water service supplies. Double that number again and you'll need dedicated transportation assets for food and water delivery. Same goes with vehicles. At the company-level, soldiers operating the vehicles can perform first-echelon maintenance and they won't need a dedicated supply staff to source their needs (their platoon sergeants can probably do all the requisitioning for them). Going up a level again requires an exponential increase in support personnel to keep pace with the greater administrative and logistical requirements of a larger organization. If you don't mind I've decided the concept you shared with us in the past is just like I want to set mine up. (I'm still waiting to see your Command element. ) I like to think in big battles mostly. I mostly imagine the Joes would not be deployed only as an amphibious unit though. For instance. Lets say the Joes commit to a rugged lawless place like Afghanistan. First Sky Patrol drops in. At least 20 guys. Then equipment like the modular HQs are dropped in as in issue 24, and more men and artillery pieces come in, mostly for defense of the base. This becomes a forward base of operations for the Joes. If it's high on a Mountain top, Tanks are out of the picture. This is when you bring in that company sized unit to help man the base and serve as the quick reactionary force for your deep operatives. This is a non-Urban environment. So Swat guys are out unless they serve as Security. Some place like Afghanistan offers a place to use the Arctic guys as well, but I see them doing Recon or Special Forces type work. That's a small team though. If this location sits at the top of a Plateau or near a heavily populated Valley then maybe Armor would be useful. (It's always a stretch to include the Armor) What would be the most useful are Helicopters, and VTOL aircraft. I feel like the the Joes should really only be using VTOL aircraft. Anything else requires a big presence and a lot of personnel. A MEU only has 6 Harriers, but it's complete Aviation Combat element is about 500 men! That's a lot of mechanics. Once they've established a base supplies can be flown in. At the heart of this unit is a Company sized unit, but they still need to be based out of somewhere hopefully nearby. Although plane hijackings and embassy takeovers would be great for a company sized reactionary force. |
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