[Loose Cannon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fogger1138

Guys, we're starting to veer into political territory, and that's neither the purpose of this thread nor allowed on the forum. (See forum rules, here). I'd hate to see the thread get closed, so think twice before posting.

I went back and edited my more or less useless comment since it is of no bearing to the topics we discuss.

Although talking about the Stryker is proving to be very informative to me. We've touched on it before, but now Zuludelta has got me all interested in finding out more. I read 4 article today about it; 2 for and 2 against. What I'm really becoming interested in is the new Army fighting tactics that have evolved into the Stryker. This Joint Operations/Expeditionary Force mentality. Something the Marines are already setup to do but with a heavy concentration of electronics and battlefield interactions. Whether the Stryker is the best vehicle for the job is sort of irrelavent to me. The Joes would be using these anyway

YOJOE.COM | Quickstrike

or

YOJOE.COM | R.H.I.N.O. Rapid Heli-Integrated Neutralizing Offensive Vehicle

Both would be wiped out by an IED.

[zuludelta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon

What I'm really becoming interested in is the new Army fighting tactics that have evolved into the Stryker. This Joint Operations/Expeditionary Force mentality. Something the Marines are already setup to do but with a heavy concentration of electronics and battlefield interactions.

The USMC, in my mind, really have the notion of a self-contained joint capability force down pat. I guess that's part of the reason why they resisted officially joining USSOCOM for so long (while the Navy, the Army, and the Air Force dove into it two feet first). I think the USMC brass initially thought that USSOCOM compatibility didn't really offer them anything that they don't already have on their own. They already have long-range force projection abilities so they don't need to hook up with Air Force Special Operations Command, they've got some of the armed forces' best direct action and special reconnaissance assets with Force Recon, and their relationship with NAVSPECWARCOM pretty much covers whatever operational holes they might have when it comes to spec-ops requirements.

USSOCOM's relatively new Marine Corps Special Operations component (MARSOC) is going through some teething problems though. They've been out of the SOCOM loop for so long that their role isn't clearly defined. Right now, I think, MARSOC teams are just being assigned missions that would have normally been assigned to NAVSPECWARCOM's SEAL Teams, so there's a lot of grumbling about them being redundant and whatnot.

I still think that the USMC's Maritime Special Purpose Force is the best theoretical framework to hang a fictional but plausible GI Joe force structure on. An MSPF is basically a company-sized direct action unit with its own aircraft and intelligence assets, capable of operating independently for a limited amount of time. Think of it as a ranger or SF company, or a SEAL troop, but equipped with their own organic helicopters and C-130s (instead of having to "borrow" 160th SOAR, Air Force Special Ops, or Naval Aviation assets). To me, that sounds very much like a set-up that can accomodate the GI Joe team's fictional mix of ground and air combat elements.

[Loose Cannon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fogger1138

Guys, we're starting to veer into political territory, and that's neither the purpose of this thread nor allowed on the forum. (See forum rules, here). I'd hate to see the thread get closed, so think twice before posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zuludelta

The USMC, in my mind, really have the notion of a self-contained joint capability force down pat. I guess that's part of the reason why they resisted officially joining USSOCOM for so long (while the Navy, the Army, and the Air Force dove into it two feet first). I think the USMC brass initially thought that USSOCOM compatibility didn't really offer them anything that they don't already have on their own. They already have long-range force projection abilities so they don't need to hook up with Air Force Special Operations Command, they've got some of the armed forces' best direct action and special reconnaissance assets with Force Recon, and their relationship with NAVSPECWARCOM pretty much covers whatever operational holes they might have when it comes to spec-ops requirements.

USSOCOM's relatively new Marine Corps Special Operations component (MARSOC) is going through some teething problems though. They've been out of the SOCOM loop for so long that their role isn't clearly defined. Right now, I think, MARSOC teams are just being assigned missions that would have normally been assigned to NAVSPECWARCOM's SEAL Teams, so there's a lot of grumbling about them being redundant and whatnot.

I still think that the USMC's Maritime Special Purpose Force is the best theoretical framework to hang a fictional but plausible GI Joe force structure on. An MSPF is basically a company-sized direct action unit with its own aircraft and intelligence assets, capable of operating independently for a limited amount of time. Think of it as a ranger or SF company, or a SEAL troop, but equipped with their own organic helicopters and C-130s (instead of having to "borrow" 160th SOAR, Air Force Special Ops, or Naval Aviation assets). To me, that sounds very much like a set-up that can accomodate the GI Joe team's fictional mix of ground and air combat elements.

Totally Agree. I've spent some time trying to breakdown how an MEU may correspond to a GIJoe equivalent since it would offer the most similar comparisons with vehicle mixture, Unit types and aircraft. This of course assumes that the joes are a 2000 man force when you add all the support personnel neccessary and Green Shirts.

Marine Expeditionary Unit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maritime Special Purpose Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maritime Special Purpose Force: What Force For What Purpose?


Still this leaves out the integral Airborne\Ranger part of GIJoe and Special Ops. What I think are equally important on the war on terror are the Green Berets, who go native and have the Language skills and the Delta Force who are your most highly refined, immensely trained, and most mature Special Operators. Unfortunately the way the Joe SEALs are represented they only get Scuba duty, yet their skills are similar to Delta. But almost all these SpecOps units do Close quarter training.

[Loose Cannon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troynos

Back on topic.

So who's on the Joe SWAT Team?

Shockwave
Wide Scope
Bullhorn

Who else?

Bullet-proof
Barricade
Maybe Mutt
Law (Battle Corps)
LongArm V1 was surely meant for SWAT although his V2 EOD persona works as well
Steel Brigade always had an urban feel to them
Surefire
Mayday if you use a different Scarlett
Lockdown from Sigma Six, but you have to use V2 Shockwave
Mace seems like he would work too but he's undercover so I don't know.

I like the idea of Budo. I need to do a head swap. But put half the Ninja Joes on the SWAT team. Were else would they get to use their Close Combat skills.

I use to use pretty much every Joe that wore Blue on that SWAT/Urban team.

So Battle Corps Roadblock
Snake Eyes V4
Mercer V2
Battle Corps Beachhead
Psyche-Out (Sonic)
Muskrat (Battle Corp)
Effects

[Topside]

been away for a few days and just got caught up on evrything.
i'm too tired to weigh in on the heavier stuff right now so i'm just goona give my top 10 joes & cobras and call it a night.

Joes-
beachhead
gung ho
falcon
footloose
flint
shipwreck
big ben
crankcase
duke
recondo

Cobras-
firefly
scrap iron
viper
snow serpent
crimson guard
eel
anything in the original "the enemy" mold ie: cobra officer, cobra trooper, stinger driver etc....
gas mask trooper
iron grenadier
undertow

note: these are in no particular order and all refer to V1 of that figure. i lost interest in the 90's because of the ridiculous turn the line took

[Tanksmasher]

Yeah, Loose listed the rest of the SWAT guys before I could respond. I also think Lady Jaye, Chuckles, Jinx, Budo and Quick Kick should work in Intel Collection Units.

And all this Stryker talk is making me depressed because I was really looking forward to getting the new FOV Stryker that was supposed to come up this spring but now they either cancelled it or delayed it til next year. Instead, Unimax is releasing and LAV-25 but I already have one of those from BBI.

[Troynos]

I think I'm going to go with the cartoon and have all my Joes able to fly Skystrikers.












Just kidding. I always hated that.

I think the Marines MPSF or MEU are the perfect look for what the Joe team is supposed to be set up as, just add in the Joes Rangers and Special Forces. I still see the Joes at around 1000 personal, including support. I don't see more then 2-3 Skystrikers at a time, 2-3 Conquest, etc.. Maybe 2-3 Mobats, 2-3 Maulers, etc..

I'm changing my thinking of having the Joe's be in 4 bases around the world and changing that to 2 large bases (North America and Europe, with smaller outposts in different areas: Asia, Sierra Gordo/South America, Greenland, Trucial Abysmia/Africa) with a large group on the Flagg and G.I. Jane Freighter.

[Melissa]

1000 personal? That is alot of Joes!

[Troynos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melissa

1000 personal? That is alot of Joes!

And that would be a minimum. The problem with the Joe team has they were shown in the comics was the missing support staff.

Most tanks have a 4-man Crew. The Tank Commander, Driver, Gunner and Loader. Artillery Crews are 3 to 4 man, and that's also the same for a Mortar Crew; the shooter, the spotter and the loader.

Then there's the Flight Crew that's needed to get planes in the air. Mechanics and other maintenance personal.

DDP introduced the Greenshirts (who were based on the old background greenshirts in the cartoon) and IDW has a large support staff shown already.

Something like the Rolling Thunder would have at least a crew of 4, possibly 6. Thunderclap would be at least 6.

There's 200+ Named Joes (something like that). The problem ends up being in integrating the Named Joes and the Greenshirts.

So that's when Steeler becomes the Commander of the Joe's Tank Division, with Greenshirts manning the other Mobats. But then what about Heavy Metal? Is he the Commander of the Joe's Mauler Tank Division with Steeler being the MOBAT and being the overall Tank Division Commander (he's higher rank then Heavy Metal).

That's kind of the idea I go with, except this is where I came up with the two base idea. What does the Joe team need with two different style of tanks? One style of tank is for one location, the other is for the other location of Joe base.

The Joes, if they are a real Delta Force-type unit, wouldn't have an armor/artillery/air component at all. But since they do, the fun part is in figuring out how it all works.

[Loose Cannon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troynos

And that would be a minimum. The problem with the Joe team has they were shown in the comics was the missing support staff.

Most tanks have a 4-man Crew. The Tank Commander, Driver, Gunner and Loader. Artillery Crews are 3 to 4 man, and that's also the same for a Mortar Crew; the shooter, the spotter and the loader.

Then there's the Flight Crew that's needed to get planes in the air. Mechanics and other maintenance personal.

DDP introduced the Greenshirts (who were based on the old background greenshirts in the cartoon) and IDW has a large support staff shown already.

Something like the Rolling Thunder would have at least a crew of 4, possibly 6. Thunderclap would be at least 6.

There's 200+ Named Joes (something like that). The problem ends up being in integrating the Named Joes and the Greenshirts.

So that's when Steeler becomes the Commander of the Joe's Tank Division, with Greenshirts manning the other Mobats. But then what about Heavy Metal? Is he the Commander of the Joe's Mauler Tank Division with Steeler being the MOBAT and being the overall Tank Division Commander (he's higher rank then Heavy Metal).

That's kind of the idea I go with, except this is where I came up with the two base idea. What does the Joe team need with two different style of tanks? One style of tank is for one location, the other is for the other location of Joe base.

The Joes, if they are a real Delta Force-type unit, wouldn't have an armor/artillery/air component at all. But since they do, the fun part is in figuring out how it all works.

Yeah I would say 2000 not even including the naval staff that supports the USS FLAGG which traveling with a small armada would be about 8000 more men and women. A crew of an aircraft carrier is around 5500 and the crew of its combined carrier battle group would be another 2000 at least.

With 2000 soldiers you get the full complement of a realistic military set up. But 1000 sure makes it easier especially if the Joes can do it with less. If you leave out the all the support and Armor and Artillery guys, I think the Joes are really a company sized unit, with about 12 different separate squads 12 men apiece.

Airborne
SWAT/Urban
Jungle/LRRP
Communications/
Space
Ninjas
Intelligence
Hi-Tech/R&D
Snow
Sea
Eco
Ridiculous color schemes