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03-16-2009, 03:20 PM | #3911 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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03-16-2009, 03:40 PM | #3912 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
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Quote:
Good point.
But if planning for reduced troop strength was really on their minds, wouldn't developing force multiplication assets be a better investment? In my (admittedly non-professional) opinion, a solid Civil Affairs/Information Operations strategy coupled with intelligent and culturally-sensitive diplomacy and discreet, low-level special operations trumps the latest flavour-of-the-month weapon/vehicle and "shock & awe" any day of the week in counteracting an insurgency. The fact remains that some of the more influential DoD brass are in bed with major military equipment and manpower contractors (I use that as a figure of speech, of course, but then again, I wouldn't be all that shocked if they were literally sleeping with the CEOs... nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to how deep the profiteering mentality has worked its way into the upper echelons of the military) and that's led to acquisition and organizational decisions motivated by profit and the bottom line instead of strategic goals... in GI Joe terms, it's as if General Flagg and General Austin were working with M.A.R.S. and letting Destro dictate some of their strategy while at the same time subcontracting the Iron Grenadiers to beef up manpower. EDIT With the defense contractors, these are all ex-military. The defense industry got such a surge during the second world war there was no looking back. The budget for the DOD is like all other agencies combined times 3. And I'm not exaggerating. I think it's $560 Billion. I think Department of Transportation is like $11 Billion which is a 50% increase from last year. 2009 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I don't see the Stryker as the Flavor of the month though. Interim Armored Vehicle - Stryker THis is how the Army explains it though. I haven't read it all but it sheds some light as to why they are trying the Stryker. I don't thin the Stryker is what they originally had in mind but it has been fairly successful. The problem they are starting to run into is to move a huge armored division around is a massive undertaking, and once we kick whoever's butt it is, the tanks lose their usefulness almost immediately. Tanks are expensive to maintain, require massive amounts of supplies and Fuel, and time to deploy. Then there is the legacy model which the US is working with, which was designed for a full scale war across the Eastern European landscape. Once they go into cities they become less manueverable, and are not useful for dealing with the problems of interacting with the locals. I like your strategy of counteracting an insurgency, but I think those soldiers still have to get to those places with a little more protection than a HumVee. The Stryker is powerful enough, and is better suited for the new military docterine of Joint Operations. It was built with the thought of it being a force multiplier, since it is so tuned into the Command and control structure that runs the whole area. Someone always has you're back when you are in a Stryker team. Still I want to hear more on your Counter-insurgency strategy. I think the Joes are also missing a Civil Affairs guy. What we have now in Iraq after the main battles are over, are guys like Civil Affairs, Psy-Ops, MP's (CID), and I'm sure DIA all running the show. Last edited by Loose Cannon; 03-16-2009 at 09:25 PM.. |
03-16-2009, 05:19 PM | #3913 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Quote:
I don't see the Stryker as the Flavor of the month though.
Interim Armored Vehicle - Stryker THis is how the Army explains it though. I haven't read it all but it sheds some light as to why they are trying the Stryker. I don't thin the Stryker is what they originally had in mind but it has been fairly successful. The problem they are starting to run into is to move a huge armored division around is a massive undertaking, and once we kick whoever's butt it is, the tanks lose their usefulness almost immediately. Tanks are expensive to maintain, require massive amounts of supplies and Fuel, and time to deploy. Then there is the legacy model which the US is working with, which was designed for a full scale war across the Eastern European landscape. Once they go into cities they become less manueverable, and are not useful for dealing with the problems of interacting with the locals. I think the Stryker (and it's older USMC and Canadian Forces cousin, the LAV-25) is a pretty good light armored vehicle that offers a reasonable compromise of mobility, protection, and weight-savings compared to the older, heavier Bradley. But it's been designed with 20th century open warfare in mind, and not 21st century counterinsurgency. Looking at the acquisition timeline, something just doesn't add up (or it adds up, and the sum is brass shortsightedness). The US and its allies had been conducting GWOT operations in Afghanistan and in Iraq for a little over 4 years by the time the Stryker went into limited-scale production in 2005. In that 4 year interim, numerous reports had already come back from the field citing the realities of the battlespace: (a) IEDs and roadside bombs were the enemy's weapon of choice against vehicles; (b) a large segment of the native population was, at the very least, distrustful of coalition forces and an openly militaristic organizational posture wasn't helping win over "hearts and minds;" and (c) much of the engagement with armed insurgents occurred in urban areas where conventional armored vehicles had difficulty maneuvering effectively or efficiently. The Stryker addresses none of those three realities. Its "out-of-the-box" IED and mine-protection capabilities are marginal, its outwardly aggressive design makes it a trust and liasion bridging liability, and it is much too large and heavy for efficient urban engagement. For years they've had these reports staring them in the face, and they still went into full-scale production in 2007 (at about $4.13 million a pop, according to the federal Government Accountability Office), even after feedback from limited scale field trials came back less than positive (see this article for a brief overview of the problems with the acquisition program circa 2004). Heck, they didn't even need all those reports... all they had to do was get a decent military history book and see how the USSR made a total clusterf//k out of their 1978-1988 invasion of Afghanistan, despite having what was arguably the most formidable ground combat forces at the time in terms of manpower and armored vehicle numbers. And to top it all off and make it even more surreal, COTS (commercial-off-the-shelf) alternatives to the Stryker exist that are better at doing the jobs the Stryker was never intended to do in the first place. AND they're being made by the same guys who make the Stryker. AND they're selling them to the DoD on the premise that they're better and cheaper than the stuff they sold to them so recently. I mean seriously, I don't know if this is comedy or just plain sad. It's like Hasbro releasing multiple Storm-Shadow variants within weeks of each other, knowing that we'll all be lining up at Wal-mart buying all of it. I've always thought that Doc would make a good Civil Affairs Officer. Using him in a detached Civil Affairs role (either in the Public Health & Safety or Emergency Services functional specialty), in my mind, seems to be a better use of his talents and education rather than using him as a field medic (where, in all practicality, he probably would be no better than an enlisted 68W like Lifeline). And it totally works with the idea of the Joes being an elite USSOCOM unit, since Army Civil Affairs Command is officially recognized as a Special Operations-capable organization. Other Joes whom I think could easily be re-imagined as Civil Affairs Specialists (functional specialties in parentheses): - Lady Jaye (Cultural Relations & Linguistics) - Barbecue (Emergency Services) - Hard Top (Public Works and Utilities) - Scoop (Public Communications) - Airtight (Environmental Management) |
03-16-2009, 05:34 PM | #3914 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Montana raised currently in Utah
Posts: 127
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My father thinks it's complete and utter BS that troops continue to die so much to IED's even now this many years into it. That that problem should have been solved before anything else.
Also I always thought that making our troops a peacekeeping force like police in iraq is not what they are trained to do, not where their skills lie... Am I wrong?
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03-16-2009, 05:52 PM | #3915 |
#voteblackjack
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Location: Northwood, NH
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Quote:
My father thinks it's complete and utter BS that troops continue to die so much to IED's even now this many years into it. That that problem should have been solved before anything else.
Also I always thought that making our troops a peacekeeping force like police in iraq is not what they are trained to do, not where their skills lie... Am I wrong? Yeah, the Army troops aren't trained for "after-combat". They're trained to do things during combat. They shouldn't be used as a peacekeeping force, or at least the majority of the armed forces, because that's not what they are trained for.
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03-16-2009, 05:55 PM | #3916 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
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There's a sports columnist on Breaking news, real-time scores and daily analysis from Sports Illustrated – SI.com Peter King. He writes a football column every monday, called Monday Morning Quarterback. He's got a guy that writes in a SFC Maguire, who's in Iraq with an IED disarming unit (forget what the unit is called). The SFC writes in periodically with updates of what's going on over there. King doesn't edit the letters when he prints 'em.
It's kind of.. I don't know how to describe it.. but you read the letters and get a feel for what it's like over there (and the men he's lost) and what they go thru and then at the end of the letters the SFC asks a football question, looking for an update on his favorite team.
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03-16-2009, 05:58 PM | #3917 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hope, ME
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Guys, we're starting to veer into political territory, and that's neither the purpose of this thread nor allowed on the forum. (See forum rules, here). I'd hate to see the thread get closed, so think twice before posting.
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03-16-2009, 06:07 PM | #3918 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Quote:
Guys, we're starting to veer into political territory, and that's neither the purpose of this thread nor allowed on the forum. (See forum rules, here). I'd hate to see the thread get closed, so think twice before posting.
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03-16-2009, 06:18 PM | #3919 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Montana raised currently in Utah
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Quote:
Guys, we're starting to veer into political territory, and that's neither the purpose of this thread nor allowed on the forum. (See forum rules, here). I'd hate to see the thread get closed, so think twice before posting.
Yar. mmk. Also has anyone else on here gotten the resolute 5 pack? The missile launcher in there is amazing.
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03-16-2009, 06:27 PM | #3920 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
(all preceding questions are rhetorical, by the way :P) And more to Troynos' point, recent operations in the Middle East have seen soldiers doing jobs they're just not trained for, or jobs that would be better off left to other assets. There was a bit of an outcry from both the media and the military establishment when it was learned that Special Forces soldiers were being used to conduct routine infantry raids and patrols in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sure, SF soldiers are just as competent as, if not more than, line infantrymen when it comes to those duties, but it's the equivalent of using a helicopter to pick up your groceries from the local supermarket. SF operators represent a large investment on the part of the military... it costs more time and money to train them, and no real price can be put on the wealth of experience and skills they bring to the field. But apparently, some commanders, probably feeling the need to play with their very own "real life GI Joes" use them to do jobs that could just as easily be handled by a reasonably experienced infantry regular, putting valuable and hard-to-replace assets in unnecessary danger. (BTW, I'm not saying that the line guys aren't as "valuable" as people, just saying that some commanders are inappropriately using the people under their command) |
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