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03-13-2009, 02:07 PM | #3831 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Again, not to beat a dead horse, but there could be exceptional circumstances where and E7 is leading an E8 within the same team. I'm not going to say its not possible, but I'd like to see some kind of evidence that indicates this happens. But just consider that Delta recruits from Rangers and Green Berets. They're going to take the best--guys with leadership and combat experience and proficient at certain things. A Green Beret set ODA is mostly made of E6-E8 sgts. The assistant weapons/engineer/medical/communications sgts are E6s and the others are E7s. The commander is a captain with a WO as second in command. The lead NCO is an E8. I don't see why Delta would operate in a much different fashion.
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03-13-2009, 02:54 PM | #3832 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Kill Bin Laden: A Delta Force ... - Google Book Search
Here's one book from Oliver's list. I stand corrected it's full of SGt majors. Now I want the book too. Last edited by Loose Cannon; 03-13-2009 at 03:15 PM.. |
03-13-2009, 03:18 PM | #3833 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: virginia
Posts: 632
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Usually the only time a lower rank would be in charge of a higher, is when the higher rank has less experience. I was a security officer on a Navy base and I was an E5 with a few E6's under me, my assistant watch commander was an E4, so he was over the 6's for a while. I really doubt that a SPECWAR Unit would ever be in that situation unless someone has just been KIA.
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03-13-2009, 03:35 PM | #3834 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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I read half of "Kill Bib Laden" last night. It's been very informative. It seems that there is no one below an E-6 in Delta Force, and an Officer is offered an opportunity to try out when he's a Captain - No LT's in Delta Force. They use interesting nomenclatures for Units: Squadrons, Troops,... it's almost like the Cavalry. Sgt. Majors really get in the field, but they work for Captains or Majors. Teams are organized by Ranks, and there is uniformity in dress when a larger number of Operators are working together... it's not as strict as the Ranger Regiment, but not much different from Special Forces. When Delta Operators are working undercover, they dress in disguise (obviously).
Rank does matter, but there's just a lot more accountability and interaction from all the team members. When they do after action reviews, there is no such thing as "speaking out of turn"... every member is accountable. It's a good thing. But when they're on mission, Chain of Command is in full effect. I've still got plenty to read, and I'll make a more detailed report later. However, I never thought Delta worked like the 82nd Airborne... All Army Special Operations are much more relaxed than that. But to have any organization, there must be a firm and constant chain of command. In combat, there's no other way for it to work.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
03-13-2009, 03:37 PM | #3835 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
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Quote:
Again, not to beat a dead horse, but there could be exceptional circumstances where and E7 is leading an E8 within the same team. I'm not going to say its not possible, but I'd like to see some kind of evidence that indicates this happens. But just consider that Delta recruits from Rangers and Green Berets. They're going to take the best--guys with leadership and combat experience and proficient at certain things. A Green Beret set ODA is mostly made of E6-E8 sgts. The assistant weapons/engineer/medical/communications sgts are E6s and the others are E7s. The commander is a captain with a WO as second in command. The lead NCO is an E8. I don't see why Delta would operate in a much different fashion.
I don't either except that they may be a few years older. I saw the History Channel's Story on BlackHawk down, and in the interviews, the Rangers were all still pretty much young guys in their twenties. The Delta Guy they interview, with the big stache, is well in his 40's. He's not and E-5. AS soon as the first Delta guy went down they all got scared because imagine that guy was way older and more experienced than they were. To be a WO you have to have been a E-6 to begin with, before you can qualify for Warrant Officer School. I need to double check that. |
03-13-2009, 04:05 PM | #3836 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Quote:
Anyway, there were instances when successful applicants to the direct accession program with vast professional experience and/or significant academic background in certain fields would enter service as E-5s or E-6s. And while nominally, they would outrank E-3s and E-4s, they were generally employed more as technical specialists, and not as squad leaders because of their lack of military experience (think of them as Warrant Officers Lite). The DOD scrapped the program after a couple of years (I think it was because they were getting complaints of a glut of "paper" E-5s and E-6s), and now, the highest enlisted entry rank a bachelor's degree holder can get in the US Armed Forces is E-4. But I could very well imagine the DOD employing a similiar direct accession program for a unit like G.I. Joe, though, so you could theoretically have a situation where a direct accession E-8 would be serving "under" a traditional E-7. |
03-13-2009, 04:14 PM | #3837 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
Well, I've just read the last few pages here and I must say that there are some good points on both sides. Colonel Hawk provided some really interesting information about Hama and the limitations of his work, but I don't see any fault with Oliver's assumption about command. I agree that Hama obviously had to overcome a lot of challenges set by Hasbro, and this explains some of the abnormalities that we find in the Joeverse. I think Hama is obviously familiar with the military and special forces, probably at least as familiar as I am, but there are some things that just don't make sense, and I'm not sure who is responsible.
But here's something to consider: tank commanders do not have to be officers. In a typical platoon of four tanks, there are four tank commanders. One is a platoon leader (O-2) and the others are all sergeants: one E-7 platoon sgt and two E-6 staff sgts. The gunners are usually E-5s and the drivers and loaders are either E-3 or E-4. So why would Hama insist that Steeler be an officer, if indeed that is what he did? I'm not saying he didn't do this, but it wouldn't have been incorrect for Hasbro to call Steeler a tank commander with an E-6 grade if that's what they wanted to do; however, to do something like call him a tank platoon leader with an E-6 rank would have been a mistake because platoon leaders are officers, not staff sgts. Also, Oliver is correct to say that an E-7 Delta operator is not going to have less experience and training than an E-5 Delta operator, precisely because the E-7 has been around longer. When a new E-5 gets to become a Delta operator and joins a Delta team that has E-7s and E-8 that have been there awhile, when is this E-5 going to be giving these guys orders exactly? Now maybe there's an E-5 who has a particular set of skills or specific training, as in EOD, that others don't have, but that doesn't mean he's in charge of the E-7 when the mission requires an EOD specialist. It just doesn't work that way. The E-5 can instruct the E-7 on things to do and give suggestions and advice about what should be done--and the man in charge should probably listen--but the team leader (who will have the highest rank) is going to be the one to give orders based on the E-5's expertise. The E-5 isn't going to give the orders. The military isn't run from the bottom up. There's a reason why officers lead NCOs and NCOs lead privates and why higher ranking officers or NCOs are in charge of lower ranking officers and NCOs respectively. Now this doesn't mean that you'll see a green-eared 2nd LT bossing a Sgt Major around like he's some kind of private, because that LT would later get his ass chewed. High ranking NCOs get a lot of respect because of their experience and knowledge, but the butter bar officer still always outranks the Sgt Major. Of course there are times when a higher ranking officer or NCO might accompany a team as an observer, which means he is not the guy leading the mission. The higher ranking observer can essentially "take orders", but he isn't officially getting told what to do. In all honesty, the joeverse doesn't precisely resemble any real military unit. As it's structured with armor, artillery, air support, naval support and men and women of all ranks, including an E-3 Ambush, they are not exactly like Special Forces, Rangers, Delta or even the regular infantry. The Joes are certainly similar to real military units, but they are a hybrid of many types. Now, there are some inconsistencies and inaccuracies and I'm not blaming (nor do I think anyone else here is either) Larry Hama for these small flaws. I'm sure mistakes were made by all parties involved in the process, and that's ok. We're all just trying to piece it together. I'm looking forward to hearing what Oliver has to say about Delta but I've also enjoyed hearing Col Hawk's view of Hama's involvement. I don't see any need to offend or be offended here. No one has to leave but saying someone is flat out wrong is a tad strong. Let's reconsider the arguments and give credit where it's due. I also don't feel he addressed any of the points in my argument - about Hama or Delta Force. It would seem to me that the Colonel is obviously well versed in the "Behind the scenes" story of the Joes, but not so much on the way the Military actually works. Due credit is always to be respected and taken under advisement... however, careful reading of an argument with which one is taking issue is also a good rule of thumb. Because for all the controversy that Mr. Hama may have had with Hasbro, the fact still remains that he didn't have access to all the characters when he started writing, and all his efforts were for a comic book that was aimed at 6 - 14 year old boys. None of the "Behind the scenes" story of Hama's time with G.I. Joe disputes those facts. If Mr. Hama had had all the characters from the start, and was told to write a series of novels for adults, we might have ended up with a very different Joeverse indeed. That's all I was really saying - and that was never addressed. In any case, I have sent Mr. Hama our next question and I'm currently waiting for his response. We'll just have to see what he says.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
03-13-2009, 04:24 PM | #3838 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
If I recall correctly, several years ago, the US Department of Defense had what I think they called the "direct accession program" or something like that (my memory's a bit rusty). It was kind of the enlisted equivalent to the current Direct Commissioning program for officers (where doctors, lawyers, and religious ministers with extensive professional experience receive direct commissions after OCS, bypassing the lieutenant ranks and entering service as full captains).
Anyway, there were instances when successful applicants to the direct accession program with vast professional experience and/or significant academic background in certain fields would enter service as E-5s or E-6s. And while nominally, they would outrank E-3s and E-4s, they were generally employed more as technical specialists, and not as squad leaders because of their lack of military experience (think of them as Warrant Officers Lite). The DOD scrapped the program after a couple of years (I think it was because they were getting complaints of a glut of "paper" E-5s and E-6s), and now, the highest enlisted entry rank a bachelor's degree holder can get in the US Armed Forces is E-4. But I could very well imagine the DOD employing a similiar direct accession program for a unit like G.I. Joe, though, so you could theoretically have a situation where a direct accession E-8 would be serving "under" a traditional E-7. The Rangers have a similar program for the Regiment. Delta Force has no program like that because they require more seasoned soldiers. Experience is one of the main things they look for before inviting someone to try out for their team. It is certainly possible, that like the "18X" program, G.I. Joe could have a program like that. Anyone's Joeverse is their own business. Certainly there are file cards that would suggest that certain members of the team were recruited from civilian jobs for interesting reasons. I just always thought that every Joe had come through the military somehow. A guy like Shockwave, even with his SWAT background, probably joined the Army to do SWAT work as an MP, and ended up trying out for G.I. Joe... but that is, of course, merely conjecture on my part. Your idea of an "18X" program for G.I. Joe makes a lot of sense, and is certainly rooted in reality. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? |
03-13-2009, 04:32 PM | #3839 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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I think the Joe SWAT guys went from SWAT to Joe. Now they could have gone military then SWAT then Joe, but I think they were recruited directly from SWAT. I think the Joes saw a need for people specially trained in Urban Combat and Urban situations (hostage rescue, infiltration, etc..).
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03-13-2009, 04:37 PM | #3840 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
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Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
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Aren't most SWAT guys ex-military?
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