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03-11-2009, 04:11 PM | #3771 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,157
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The cartoon was tons of fun but the accusations that it was just a half hour commercial are true to a certain extent. So yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock in the cartoon as far as canon goes. It was in the business of selling toys.
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03-11-2009, 04:15 PM | #3772 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Montana raised currently in Utah
Posts: 127
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so was the comic......
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Yeah my name is really dumb. |
03-11-2009, 04:18 PM | #3773 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,157
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03-11-2009, 04:36 PM | #3774 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,236
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Yeah the cartoons just gave us a chance to see our fav characters in action, but I never could take it seriously, and the story premises just didn't stand up to any real scrutiny. I always preferred the comics, though I have high hopes for Resolute. I just hope they don't dumb it down too much.
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03-11-2009, 04:55 PM | #3775 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Quote:
I agree completely. I own all the cartoons on DVD, and I watch them often... but it's a comedy show for me now. I really get a kick out of it, and it brings back great memories, but it's no way to run a Joeverse. Considering Mr. Hama's last answer to our questions, I think that a lot of us have come up with better ways to organize the Joe Team than the Comic book. All of the chains of command that y'all have proposed have seemed very well organized, and a lot more throughly considered that Mr. Hama's system of organization.
And if I do say so myself, my system isn't too bad when it comes to organizing the Joes... even if I do use the Sub-Teams. ;) By the way, I just won Tiger Force Psyche-Out and I'm trying for Tiger Force Blizzard. I'm hopeful. Blizzard makes sense only because Frostbite needs a partner on Tiger Force. Psyche-Out is the other Officer on Tiger Force... I'm still trying to figure out how to use Psyche-Out in my Joeverse. The man is a certified Tough guy. Tiger Force, Night Force, Psy Ops... this is a real deal Special Operator. I've just got to figure out how to use him properly. |
03-11-2009, 05:12 PM | #3776 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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I was thinking about that magical year of 87. It was a time when colors were all over the place and one of my least favorite years with regard to the Cobras we got. But when looking at some of the characters in particular I'm surprised how well they interact based on their occupations. I really thinking about how
Falcon as a Green Beret would be working with psy-ops like Psyche-Out Chuckles as CID would probably get deployed with LAW The only thing missing connecting these two pieces would be a Civil Affairs guy. I'm guessing they would all be Airborne qualified. Add Outback TunnelRat and Crazylegs, and you have basically what gets deployed to Afghanistan. |
03-11-2009, 07:16 PM | #3777 |
Field Commander
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitefish Montana
Posts: 33
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In response to Oliverbox, while I agree that everyone has a great chain of command for their own Joeverse's, I disagree about Mr. Hama's supposed "less well thought out" chain of command. To him Joe operates like Delta, and might be less conventional even.
Delta, and even Devgru and many times Special Forces operate largely based upon experience, and mission needs, NOT regular military rank structure. So The comic makes perfect sense, and always has in that regard, though even within its pages I think you would be hard pressed to find many instances where Joes with lower ranks were in charge over those with higher. I would think this would make military sticklers happy. |
03-11-2009, 07:30 PM | #3778 |
Field Commander
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitefish Montana
Posts: 33
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Oliverbox, I am not trying to get on your case, I just disagreed with your earlier statement.
I am not sure if you caught my earlier comments about a Snake-Eyes related question,(a few pages back) but for those of us that want to know these details, I thought those would be some good things to clarify with Mr. Hama. |
03-11-2009, 07:59 PM | #3779 |
Cobra Viper
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Montana raised currently in Utah
Posts: 127
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Quote:
Oliverbox, I am not trying to get on your case, I just disagreed with your earlier statement.
I am not sure if you caught my earlier comments about a Snake-Eyes related question,(a few pages back) but for those of us that want to know these details, I thought those would be some good things to clarify with Mr. Hama.
__________________
Yeah my name is really dumb. |
03-12-2009, 12:23 AM | #3780 |
I Ride with Claymore!!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Posts: 6,821
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Quote:
In response to Oliverbox, while I agree that everyone has a great chain of command for their own Joeverse's, I disagree about Mr. Hama's supposed "less well thought out" chain of command. To him Joe operates like Delta, and might be less conventional even.
Delta, and even Devgru and many times Special Forces operate largely based upon experience, and mission needs, NOT regular military rank structure. So The comic makes perfect sense, and always has in that regard, though even within its pages I think you would be hard pressed to find many instances where Joes with lower ranks were in charge over those with higher. I would think this would make military sticklers happy. I understand the point you're making about Delta and DevGru. However, Mr. Hama did not have access to all the characters when he started writing the comic book... therefore, we have a distinct advantage in organizing the team because we're able to do so in hindsight with the full roster at our disposal. We're able to organize the rosters, and set up Armor and Artillery and Navy and Air Force commands because we have all the characters. Mr. Hama didn't have that... characters trickled into existence and he had to use them a few at a time. Mr. Hama did amazing things considering the constraints he was working under. However, there is room for criticism when it comes to how much focus was given to the Ninja/Snake-Eyes element of his storyline. A little of it would have been fine and interesting. But there was a LOT of it, and it often overshadowed other interesting characters that could have seen more action. Other story lines that dealt with a purely military mission could have been more interesting than Storm Shadow's internal struggle... the end of the run was particularly bad in this regard. G.I. Joe is similar to Delta or DevGru, but it is also it's own entity. Delta and DevGru are precision marksmen/anti-terrorists. They work in teams with masks and matching uniforms. They are discreet and soft spoken. I have NO experience with DevGru, but I have known a few Delta Operators at Ft. Bragg... many of the Joes would not be likely choices for Delta. Loud, brash guys like Leatherneck, or Shipwreck would have never made it. Firefighters and MP's need not apply. Someone like Duke would have probably stayed with the Ranger Regiment or maybe a Special Forces Group. I doubt that Mr. Hama has done much serious research into Delta since CSM Eric Haney's book, "Inside Delta Force" or Col. Beckwith's book, "Delta Force". Both of which are excellent historical resources, but their information is not current - they were printed 25-30 years ago. A lot changes in 30 years. Even the show "The Unit" is pretty terrible. It's like watching a soap opera... Rank still matters within Delta. They have their own chain of command and promotions are made accordingly. There is no one below an E-5 in Delta Force - no one. And a Delta E-5 is not going to give a Delta E-7 an order because of "mission requirements" or "situational expertise". A Delta CSM is still a CSM, and a Delta Officer is still an Officer... A Delta CSM is not going to give orders to an Officer or even a Warrant Officer... and when those soldiers have to wear a uniform, it's regulation military professionalism. There is a reason that CSM Eric Haney is no longer welcome at Ft. Bragg. The "cowboy" tactics of Haney and Beckwith that started Delta nearly 30 years ago, have been replaced with precision and attention to detail... and Delta was never as much of a "Free for All" as Hama's Joe Team. No military organization can work that way. So, I understand why you're defending Mr. Hama. I'm a great admirer of his work as well. I own every issue of the original series and I throughly enjoy rereading them often. It was great entertainment when I was a kid, and it's still fun. However, as an adult fan, I need a little more structure and plausible reality. What worked in a Comic book that ended up being mostly about a silent ninja is not sufficient for structuring a through chain of command that encompasses over 200 characters, and all the necessary military components. DDP had the opportunity to do it, and they fell short of the mark as well. What I'm saying is that Mr. Hama played fast and loose with the Joeverse. He has always admitted as much. His stories were driven by characters being placed in difficult situations... he didn't start with a chart of his chain of command. Mr. Hama does not think in terms of strategy; he thinks in terms of tactics. He doesn't think like a General; he thinks like a Sergeant. Why else couldn't he tell us more about the qualifications of those Joes? Doesn't he know which Joes were in Special Forces? Didn't he keep up with his troop's qualifications? Did he organize his troops well? Evidently, he did not. But some of us on this thread have certainly tried to do just that. Because in the end, when Mr. Hama's storyline got thin and became unraveled it was because there was no real depth to it. It's merely the difference between a fun comic book for kids versus a well researched Novel. Mr. Hama knew a little about the Army, but had no idea how to run one... and so his Joeverse was a little FUBAR... Fun? Certainly. But FUBAR none the less. The chains of command for the Joeverse that have been proposed in this thread are simply attempts to make the Joeverse a little less FUBAR. I certainly respect and admire Mr. Hama's work, but he isn't God.
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Why aren't there more Joes from the Deep South? And would it kill Hasbro to give us a Marine Corps Officer? Last edited by oliverbox; 03-12-2009 at 12:28 AM.. |
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