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03-02-2009, 09:23 AM | #3111 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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Quote:
I just wanted to pop in and add a few of my opinions and or observations. I have been wanting to reply to many discussion points on this thread for a while, but couldn't ever seem to get current with the thread as a whole. Today I read at least a hundred pages and finally got caught up.
Someone beat me to the punch mentioning Sci-Fi being the only Joe from Montana. As a kid I thought he was pretty awesome almost because of that alone, though since straight arm Flash(as well as Breaker) were my first Joes, I have always had a soft spot for those laser guys With as many outdoorsmen that we have around here, I would like to have some Berets, Rangers, or Marines from my fine state as well.(If you think Billings is beautiful, try the northwest part of the state, smack dab in the middle of the Rocky Mountains, and home to Glacier National Park!) I have to say though, I have always wondered why Sci-Fi wasn't an update for Flash, or why Footloose wasn't an updated Grunt, or Bazooka for Zap, or Dial Tone for Breaker, Downtown for Short Fuze...etc. As much as I like all of those "new" characters I love updated versions of the originals. Many of the complaints I have seen directed at the filecards can be laid directly at the feet of Hasbro. Mr. Hama did write most of them, at least the first draft anyway, though Hasbro was notorious for editing them, or sometimes outright rewriting them. In the first 5 or so years of Joe Hama was the primary writer, and the cards hit the mark more often than not. Later hasbro took over full time. Hasbro had some weird ideas even early on though, such as making Zap a "bazooka" trooper, and naming their next anti-tank specialist "Bazooka". Hama argued with them over this several times exclaiming that "bazookas" hadn't been used since WW2. I wonder if we would have gotten "Zap:anti-armor specialist, or Missile Specialist-Code Name: Dragon or Javelin if Hama had his way. I think the rank issues are mostly misprints, and I know many times Hasbro decided what they wanted ranks to be with no thought to Hama's opinion. A lot of this info is available from places like Mark Bellomo's book "The Ultimate Guide to Gijoe" and from interviews with Hama that you can find around the Net'. As far as what certain Joes may or may not be, I find it fascinating how some Tankers can justify their thoughts on certain Joes' qualifications, and then say others don't share those qualifications when it is all conjecture. I agree with Troynos 100% that all Joes should be Rangers, Seals, Berets, Marine Recon, PJs, top Pilots etc. Personally, even with many filecards not explicitly stating it, I can't see how a unit that is either Hasbro's representation of Delta itself, or at least a Delta equivalent, if not a Delta superior force would have any members that were not the Best of the Best. Ever since I was a child it seemed obvious to me that there were not any regular ground pounders on the team.( I hate Greenshirts! Worst idea from the cartoon, they had regular troops helping all the time anyway, why would Joe have basic infantry?) They are all elite! So on the one hand, I think that there doesn't need to be any speculation about this issue on at least a basic level. I think the lowest rung of the Joe force is Ranger equivalent. On the other hand, if you want to go beyond that, and scrutinize the filecards, and Marvel run(DDP was a disgrace to the name Joe, it didn't even have the excuse of being a nationally televised childrens' cartoon. I won't say it was completely devoid of good ideas, but even those failed in execution.) I think it is obvious that Stalker is a Green Beret. No ifs and or buts. Look at his filecard, what would a man who was a LRRP, and Ranger qualified, who was top of his class in many areas, and who has a DUAL secondary of medic and interpreter, who went to Army intelligence school and language school, who is fluent in 5 languages, and who was the #1 pick on the Joe team (both Marvel and seemingly the new IDW) be doing "just" as a Ranger/LRRP? Between Nam/"Southeast Asia" he was probably even Delta, if there is one in the Joeverse, and if not, then he was actually first pick for Joe/Delta. I don't think it needs to specifically say Special Forces school in this case. The Green hat fits him too I agree with the evidence presented that I think Roadblock is a Green Beret, and as much as I would like more Marines on the team, it always seemed obvious to me that Bullhorn was FBI, even though they messed up his rank. Recondo is also a Beret, all of his missions indicate this, and combined with his stated training as a Recondo, I don't think it is a stretch. I am curious, how many Halo jumpers are there outside the Special Forces? According to wiki, all of the units that conduct Halo jumps in the US are at least accomplished, if not elite, and the "lowest standing" Army unit are Rangers therefore Ripcord has to be at LEAST a Ranger, though it doesn't say so on his filecard. It seems highly likely that Outback is a Beret as well. Between Chuckles' filecard hints, his Nam era spook outfit, and his introductory issue that I believe specifically mentions CIA, I think it is blatantly obvious that Chuckles is the Man from Uncle Now here is a Joe that has been getting dissed here a bit of late, which boggles my mind. My all time favorite: Snake-Eyes. First of all, as much as most of us like realism in Gijoe, the fact is, Gijoe is fantasy. Gijoe is the blockbuster version of Delta, sometimes that means they are beyond what Delta is, and sometimes they can't compare to Delta's real life exploits. That said, I would find it hard to believe that the most dangerous man in the most elite unit, if not the world, would be discharged because he can't talk. It has been well established that even working with a team, that Snake-Eyes CAN communicate with them, whether through sign language, military hand signals, writing, or morse code like devices. When he is alone, it isn't an issue at all. Also, he is not a superman, and never has been, he has been shot, wounded, captured, even defeated before. He is however a highly trained and dangerous individual. I have always scratched my head at the whole Ninja/commando debate. He is both, and always has been, even if his first fig didn't come with a sword. Read his V1 filecard, it was there from the beginning. So you say he was just a Ranger with Ninja training? No way Jose'. This man is as SF qualified as anyone. His language qualifications are unknown, though we might surmise he at least knows Japanese(even if he can't SPEAK it anymore) but he has been through Ranger and LRRP and Recondo school, AND he has had extensive training in mountaineering, underwater demolitions, jungle, desert, and arctic survival, and he is also an expert with all Nato and Warsaw small arms. I think he is the most highly trained man on the team. That is without mentioning his Ninja training. He is also a completely classified individual. Why would a LRRP who became a hermit after his family died be completely classified when no one else on the team is? There has to be a reason. I think it obvious that he has been doing "government work" for a while, be it before Asia, during Asia, or even between hermit and Joe. He might not be a Beret, though I think he is, but he is at least equivalent, even if it is Spook related. Also, his AWOL "issue", even as a kid I knew Hawk just wanted deniability, but that he trusted Snake-Eyes to do whatever needed doing, it was ALWAYS obvious. The Borovia incident is a prime example. This wasn't SE just running around willy nilly. That is why he was always cut some slack. Re-read those comics folks, it is all there. Thanks for listening(those that bothered to read this book;) ), and have a good night. There was an issue of the Marvel run where Hawk gave promotions to the original 13 (minus Snake-Eyes) and they got desk jobs. In a toy sense, it was to sell more toys. But to keep the "realism" it was because the originals got older and worn out and run down. I think the type of missions and stuff that the Joe team is involved in, would tend to wear you out and run you down alot quicker. You bring up some good points on Snake-Eyes. I think most of my anti-SE is cause I just don't like him and felt he got overused at the expense of other Joes. I'm hoping IDW does what they said they would and limit his use. That would make him a good character again.
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03-02-2009, 01:07 PM | #3112 |
G.I.Joe medic
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Litchfield, ME
Posts: 3,169
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I have to agree with Troynos about Snake Eyes. I think for a time he was very overused by DDP, along with Duke and Scarlett. I think that's why Jerwa's storyline with a new baker's dozen Joes appealed to me, and because most of those Joes were very versatile in their specialties. And I believe that Outback's file card lists him as a Ranger, along with Tunnel Rat.
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03-02-2009, 01:08 PM | #3113 |
Field Commander
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitefish Montana
Posts: 33
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Talking about Cobra being dangerous, and a threat to be reckoned with, just read those Trooper and Officer filecards from 82'. They aren't even the cannon fodder that most collectors make them out to be. Troopers: Highly skilled in explosives, Nato and Warsaw small arms, Martial Arts, and sabotage? Very dangerous. Officers: Martial Arts experts, masters of disguise, deceit, and demolitions? Bad dudes there.
One could argue that the best of the best were the backbone for the formation of the more specialized or elite Viper and Eel units, and afterwards the Blueshirts degenerated into basic grunts, but they didn't start that way. |
03-02-2009, 01:15 PM | #3114 |
Field Commander
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitefish Montana
Posts: 33
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Personally, and I speak as someone who actually owns all of the DDP stuff (except for the Mission Brazil one shot, which I am curious about) I think that their representation of ALL characters was mostly crap. THEY did write Snake-Eyes like a superhero, and totally blew the military aspect of Joe. I only bought it because it was the only new Joe fiction available for the last 7 years, and the first new ARAH fiction since 94'. If you want to talk "Joeverse's" I can tell you, mine does not include any of theirs, EXCEPT, Hama's Gijoe: Declassified.
A few issues into their various new series' and I am already liking IDW much better. |
03-02-2009, 01:16 PM | #3115 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hope, ME
Posts: 4,734
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Oooh, excellent point (and welcome to the thread). I like this.
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03-02-2009, 01:42 PM | #3116 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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I see the Vipers and Snow Serpants, etc.. being equilvalent to Rangers/SEaLs/Marines.
So say a Viper is equilvalent to the average Ranger, Stalker is above-average. So a Viper would be a 6-7 on a 1-10 scale, Stalker would be an 8-9. Blueshirts would be 4-5, equivalent to the regular infantry, which means they are definately no slouchs. Now some of the Blueshirts would include gang members, thugs, etc.. but they'd be pretty low on the totem pole. No Cobra is a joke, like they've been portrayed. DDP did a decent frontline story about Grunt and a Cobra blueshirt thru training and missions. Was kind of interesting, but didn't really portray the Cobra Legions as dangerous (they showed 'em being recruited mostly from prisons). There's alot of disillusioned ex-military in the world, Cobra would be the right home for them. There could be Cobra pilots that are equal to or better then Ace.
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03-02-2009, 01:44 PM | #3117 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
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Quote:
Very good point. That makes alot of sense. I've always hated the Viper filecard, it makes them sound like the common untrained grunt. Which makes no sense when you view them against the Blueshirt. Who looks more skilled and dangerous? The Blueshirt or the Viper? Even the name makes them seem more dangerous and higher-up then the Blueshirt. Cobra Trooper is higher up then a Cobra Viper?
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03-02-2009, 03:10 PM | #3118 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,235
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Many valid and well-stated points, Col Hawk. Welcome on board. You must be tired from trying to catch up on this thread. It's the best on the tank in my opinion and there's a few lifers here that have helped keep it going.
I must say I'm not anti-Snake-Eyes, though I have been critical of certain aspects of his character. I still think he's the best on the team, but it's still a team, and he needs to take a backseat once in awhile. I personally feel he's best suited for covert, often solitary, long-standing, deep-behind-enemy-lines insertions. He's such an elite soldier that as a high-value, precision weapon he must be deployed critcally and sparingly. Imagine the tax dollars spent on this man's training. You're not gonna send ole Snake charging up the middle of a bunkered hill like machine gun fodder. That would be like dusting crops with an F-22. Instead you air-drop the sonofabitch at 0330 in the dark waters off some Pacific island, where he has to swim thirty miles to shore, hike another twenty miles through backwater, brine and steamy bush. Free climb ninety feet of granite crag with sixty pounds of gear and demo. Survive on tubers, insects and jungle root while scouting out hostile installations for seven days. Then crawl out of there trackless like a ghost, not a shot fired, until the delayed demo blows and before anyone knows what the hell happened, he's sitting on the floor of a Blackhawk reading his next orders. Now what Joe is crazy enough to do that! Last edited by Tanksmasher; 03-02-2009 at 03:13 PM.. |
03-02-2009, 03:20 PM | #3119 |
#voteblackjack
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northwood, NH
Posts: 35,747
|
Quote:
Instead you air-drop the sonofabitch at 0330 in the dark waters off some Pacific island, where he has to swim thirty miles to shore, hike another twenty miles through backwater, brine and steamy bush. Free climb ninety feet of granite crag with sixty pounds of gear and demo. Survive on tubers, insects and jungle root while scouting out hostile installations for seven days. Then crawl out of there trackless like a ghost, not a shot fired, until the delayed demo blows and before anyone knows what the hell happened, he's sitting on the floor of a Blackhawk reading his next orders. Now what Joe is crazy enough to do that!
And that's how Snake-Eyes should be used.
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03-02-2009, 03:28 PM | #3120 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Quote:
I just wanted to pop in and add a few of my opinions and or observations. I have been wanting to reply to many discussion points on this thread for a while, but couldn't ever seem to get current with the thread as a whole. Today I read at least a hundred pages and finally got caught up.
Thanks for listening(those that bothered to read this book;) ), and have a good night. Wow what a great Post. You have pretty much expressed some of the most basic beliefs I've always had in the Joe characters that seem to be missing something. And it's good to know that these same things that have bothered us over the years, are a universal itch for many fans. Recondo, Stalker Outback Ripcord and yes even Snake Eyes have got to be Special Forces. I personally Love Snake-Eyes more than all other Joes. He's what made me love GIJoe to begin with. Just the Figure and a Filecard. He was barely in the Cartoons and the one where it looks like he would die from the radiation I think I almost cried. Stalker is the first Joe. No doubt about it. He's been my CSM, since I booted Duke way up. It's nice to have you on the board with us and all opinions are welcome. |
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