[seaneley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by john shaft

Except for Duke (not shown in the panel) and Ace that covers the rest of the '82-83 lineup (since Roadblock is from the class of '84). Since some of the other Joes are shown earlier in the issue I wonder if there is a way to match up some of the faces in the pic that shishi posted?




Thank you! Looks like the person above Snake-Eyes has a mustache so not sure who that could be.

I thought that, too. But it's really uneven. I think it might be shading instead.
Also, I really wish I could see all those beret flashes a bit clearer.

[john shaft]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneley

I thought that, too. But it's really uneven. I think it might be shading instead.
Also, I really wish I could see all those beret flashes a bit clearer.

Good point. I would also like to try and figure out what the insignia's on the garrison caps are as well. It seems the Army went through different periods of what was placed up there. I did a Google image search and saw some had ranks on their caps while others wore their branch (saw the Medical Corps insignia in one pic).


Looking at that picture again I am not sure how whoever put the names in there decided that was Breaker in the green beret in the back. Since the left side of the pic is blurred I cannot tell who the soldier is below Snow Job. He looks terrified so maybe Tripwire? I am assuming the person next to Wild Bill is Short Fuze due to the blonde hair? But that leaves the other blonde with the possible mustache above Snake-Eyes. No on else has blonde hair from those two years that isn't accounted for. Unless Tripwire was blonde, I don't recall ever seeing him without his helmet. And if I recall his name is of Scandinavian origin which blonde hair seems common.

[seaneley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by john shaft

Good point. I would also like to try and figure out what the insignia's on the garrison caps are as well. It seems the Army went through different periods of what was placed up there. I did a Google image search and saw some had ranks on their caps while others wore their branch (saw the Medical Corps insignia in one pic).


Looking at that picture again I am not sure how whoever put the names in there decided that was Breaker in the green beret in the back. Since the left side of the pic is blurred I cannot tell who the soldier is below Snow Job. He looks terrified so maybe Tripwire? I am assuming the person next to Wild Bill is Short Fuze due to the blonde hair? But that leaves the other blonde with the possible mustache above Snake-Eyes. No on else has blonde hair from those two years that isn't accounted for. Unless Tripwire was blonde, I don't recall ever seeing him without his helmet. And if I recall his name is of Scandinavian origin which blonde hair seems common.

Yeah. "Tormod Skoog" is definitely Scandinavian.
And, wasn't Grunt blond or light brown-haired in the comics?
Also, I think everyone agrees that Breaker was Special Forces due to his "Project Gamma" connection, hence the beret.

[jlw515]

Ok, so here is the picture I made on PowerPoint that I mentioned.

Any name that has an asterisk (*) beside it is a simple place-filler, guess because several characters are not distinguishable outside of their standard gear.

However, there is a rhyme to my reasoning here. Some of the characters are more obvious than others. Hawk, Steeler, and Doc are the only Army officers at this time (Ace is not pictured here). For the rest, work with me here. Besides Snake Eyes and Stalker, there are two other Joes with berets. Now, we have already mentioned that there are some color errors in this issue and especially this picture such as Doc's skin tone and Snow Job's beard.

So, with that, Airborne would wear a beret instead of a garrison cap. Also, even though it's not mentioned in his file card, I think Grunt makes a better candidate as either a Ranger or Green Beret than any other of the O13. Also, just for the sake of grouping him with his other Class of 1983 brothers, I made #20 Tripwire.

Anyway, it's about the best I could do. If they would have drawn one of the men wearing a garrison cap with glasses, we could easily identify him as Short-Fuze, but there didn't seem to be a lot of consistency in how the characters were drawn back then.

Jason

[jlw515]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneley

Yeah. "Tormod Skoog" is definitely Scandinavian.
And, wasn't Grunt blond or light brown-haired in the comics?
Also, I think everyone agrees that Breaker was Special Forces due to his "Project Gamma" connection, hence the beret.

Project Gamma = Special Forces? Did not know that. Ok then, well, then maybe the Joe I have listed as Grunt should actually be Breaker. Makes sense from his file card now. But I really think the beret-wearing Joe in the back is Airborne.

Jason

[jlw515]

Ok so changed Breaker and Grunt around since the mention of Project Gamma on Breaker's file card definitely makes him Special Forces, but I still think the guy in the back just has the wrong color beret and is Airborne.

Jason

[hardcorps]

Quote:

Originally Posted by john shaft

Currently I am copying Tyroc's command element from many pages ago. I am trying to find more details on some of the billets, mainly the command ones (and what the difference is between the "staff" positions versus "command").

Commander - Hawk
Deputy Commander
Executive Officer
Command Warrant - Flint
Command Senior Enlisted Leader - Duke

J1 Admin -Col. Courage
J2 Intel
J3 Ops
J4 Logistics
J5 Plans
J6 Signals
J7 Training & Force Development
J8 Combat Development

Command Chaplain
Command Engineer
Command Historian
Command Psychologist - Maj. R. Carosella or Maj. A. Milgrom (from Scarlett and Steeler's dossier respectively)
Command Surgeon
Command Security Officer - Surefire
Comptroller
HQ Commandant
Inspector General's Office
Public Affairs Officer - Super Trooper (will either be an O-4 or O-5)
Science & Technology - G.I. Jane
Staff Judge Advocate - Caseload

oop.

Let me see if I can give you some details and what I think a unit like GI Joe might have. First off, the difference between staff and command positions is that command positions, as the name implies are in the chain of command. But jobs like "command chaplain" are staff positions, not command positions. J,G, and S staff primaries (J-1, S-1 etc) are line officers, meaning they can hold command positions but are currently in staff positions. Jobs like Command Chaplain are "staff corps" jobs and the chaplain is part of the chaplain corps and cannot take command of a unit, and in fact, his opinions are advisory in nature and he does not have command authority.

The letter staffs vary a little from unit to unit, and sometimes change as you go up the chain. For example, the "3 shop" is always operations, but in a battalion, the S-3 does ops, planning, and training, but at G and J level you have the 5 for planning or "future ops" and the 7 for training. To the best of my knowledge, the 1 is always admin and personel, but many of the personel/HR functions are consolidated and each base will have a consolidated admin and operational units no longer deal with a lot of that. 2 is always intel, 4 is always logistics, 6 is always comm. the 8 is sometimes resources which might mean the comptroller/financial planning or it might be literally resource analysis with a separate comptroller/finance officer.

command chaps, surgeon etc is a title for the head guy in that field assigned to the unit. For example, at the battalion level, you have a"battalion surgeon" who is the head of medical for the BN. A command surgeon is simply the head of medical for a command. He could be a Division surgeon, brigade surgeon team surgeon etc.

Chaps, surgeon, psych (not common), and JAG are staff corps officers doing their primary job. Command engineer ( or bn, brigade, div) is a line officer engineer who is an adviser on engineering to the commander. He will participate in planning and operations as needed to advise the commander on employment of engineers.
Security officer may be a collateral duty assigned to one of primary staff members or an officer within one of the staff shops. Same with command historian. That is usually in the admin shop and it is definitely a collateral duty, where all they do is a follow a template and write a a few pages about who came and left the unit, major operations etc.
HQ commandant, or camp commandant, can be a full time job or a collateral duty often for the "4" or logistics officer. They are of course, subordinate to the commander, and may be lower ranked than many of the other officers, but they are like the mayor of "the pit". They establish (with the commanders consent) rules on conduct, unit security, logistics etc. All the boring day to day stuff that has to happen but you dont want to overload Hawk with-where to park vehicles, where to clear weapons, who is cooking dinner, maintenance, food, postal etc. Sometimes, other officers get into johnson measuring contests with the commandant because he runs the base but they feel their men are getting shortchanged or overworked or his rules are unfair etc. That probably wouldn't happen in a unit like GI Joe with their level of professonalism.
Comptroller is the budget and money guy. They could be the 8, or in the 8, or their own primary staff officer. Or, in smaller units, the supply officer who is part of the "4" handles finances.
Inspector General could be their own staff, or be the 8 or in the 8 as resource analysis and evaluation. I doubt the joes would have an IG. they investigate fraud waste and abuse as well as other complaints, and do inspections using various checklists called unimaginatively, an IG inspection where they go through and inspect each depts records and check various property accounts and finances for improprieties.
Science adviser or science officer is not common but some organizations have them. I actually held this job at one time. Rather than building experimental weapons, I basically reviewed research on various topics and answered questions on said topics. Never got to build a pulse beam or put laser beams on sharks. Sometimes I would do limited scale research or experiments, typically involving things like optimization of routes or analysis of attack patterns or casualties.

So, a wall of text but I hope this helped with the staff stuff.

[seaneley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlw515

Ok so changed Breaker and Grunt around since the mention of Project Gamma on Breaker's file card definitely makes him Special Forces, but I still think the guy in the back just has the wrong color beret and is Airborne.

Jason

Just to be clear, there was some discussion on previous pages that Breaker might also have served in a civilian capacity (instead of SF) on Project Gamma and later joined the military, hence his low pay grade (E-4) at the time of his service on G.I. JOE in 1982.

It's all just conjecture, though. Between Hama, the artist and the colorist, it's a crap shoot.

[Tanksmasher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlw515

Ok so changed Breaker and Grunt around since the mention of Project Gamma on Breaker's file card definitely makes him Special Forces, but I still think the guy in the back just has the wrong color beret and is Airborne.

Jason

I'd say that's a solid list and the guesses are as good as any. What always bothered me about Breaker being Special Forces was his E-4 rank. Hama would've known that no SF soldier would hold that rank, so it's a peculiarity but perhaps it was a mistake or someone less knowledgeable edited the card or Hama had something else in mind when he wrote Project GAMMA. I know there was an internal disagreement about Steeler's rank. I believe he was originally a sergeant but Hama insisted that a tank commander would be an LT, although the positions of tank commander in a four-tank platoon are usually held by the platoon leader, platoon sergeant and two staff sergeants.

[john shaft]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneley

Yeah. "Tormod Skoog" is definitely Scandinavian.
And, wasn't Grunt blond or light brown-haired in the comics?
Also, I think everyone agrees that Breaker was Special Forces due to his "Project Gamma" connection, hence the beret.

I think Project Gamma also had other MOS's and not just those in the Special Forces CMF. I have made Breaker Special Forces because it is the only way I can make sense out of everything stated on his original filmcard (except for Signal School).

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcorps

Let me see if I can give you some details and what I think a unit like GI Joe might have. First off, the difference between staff and command positions is that command positions, as the name implies are in the chain of command. But jobs like "command chaplain" are staff positions, not command positions. J,G, and S staff primaries (J-1, S-1 etc) are line officers, meaning they can hold command positions but are currently in staff positions. Jobs like Command Chaplain are "staff corps" jobs and the chaplain is part of the chaplain corps and cannot take command of a unit, and in fact, his opinions are advisory in nature and he does not have command authority.

The letter staffs vary a little from unit to unit, and sometimes change as you go up the chain. For example, the "3 shop" is always operations, but in a battalion, the S-3 does ops, planning, and training, but at G and J level you have the 5 for planning or "future ops" and the 7 for training. To the best of my knowledge, the 1 is always admin and personel, but many of the personel/HR functions are consolidated and each base will have a consolidated admin and operational units no longer deal with a lot of that. 2 is always intel, 4 is always logistics, 6 is always comm. the 8 is sometimes resources which might mean the comptroller/financial planning or it might be literally resource analysis with a separate comptroller/finance officer.

command chaps, surgeon etc is a title for the head guy in that field assigned to the unit. For example, at the battalion level, you have a"battalion surgeon" who is the head of medical for the BN. A command surgeon is simply the head of medical for a command. He could be a Division surgeon, brigade surgeon team surgeon etc.

Chaps, surgeon, psych (not common), and JAG are staff corps officers doing their primary job. Command engineer ( or bn, brigade, div) is a line officer engineer who is an adviser on engineering to the commander. He will participate in planning and operations as needed to advise the commander on employment of engineers.
Security officer may be a collateral duty assigned to one of primary staff members or an officer within one of the staff shops. Same with command historian. That is usually in the admin shop and it is definitely a collateral duty, where all they do is a follow a template and write a a few pages about who came and left the unit, major operations etc.
HQ commandant, or camp commandant, can be a full time job or a collateral duty often for the "4" or logistics officer. They are of course, subordinate to the commander, and may be lower ranked than many of the other officers, but they are like the mayor of "the pit". They establish (with the commanders consent) rules on conduct, unit security, logistics etc. All the boring day to day stuff that has to happen but you dont want to overload Hawk with-where to park vehicles, where to clear weapons, who is cooking dinner, maintenance, food, postal etc. Sometimes, other officers get into johnson measuring contests with the commandant because he runs the base but they feel their men are getting shortchanged or overworked or his rules are unfair etc. That probably wouldn't happen in a unit like GI Joe with their level of professonalism.
Comptroller is the budget and money guy. They could be the 8, or in the 8, or their own primary staff officer. Or, in smaller units, the supply officer who is part of the "4" handles finances.
Inspector General could be their own staff, or be the 8 or in the 8 as resource analysis and evaluation. I doubt the joes would have an IG. they investigate fraud waste and abuse as well as other complaints, and do inspections using various checklists called unimaginatively, an IG inspection where they go through and inspect each depts records and check various property accounts and finances for improprieties.
Science adviser or science officer is not common but some organizations have them. I actually held this job at one time. Rather than building experimental weapons, I basically reviewed research on various topics and answered questions on said topics. Never got to build a pulse beam or put laser beams on sharks. Sometimes I would do limited scale research or experiments, typically involving things like optimization of routes or analysis of attack patterns or casualties.

So, a wall of text but I hope this helped with the staff stuff.

Thanks hardcorps!

I think the case with berets in the Joe team is that neither someone from a Special Forces Group or from a unit that is considered jump status would be able to wear their green or red berets respectively. I think that is only if they are currently serving on said units. The picture of Gordon and Shughart (both Special Forces) show them in black berets. I would think the Joe team would have some sort of unit cohesion with everyone wearing the same head gear. Then you have the issue of members of the Marines in the Joe team. Would they want to wear Army sanctioned attire?