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06-18-2018, 08:40 AM | #22801 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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Quote:
A little while back we were discussing marksmanship badges and the various "qualified expert" notations on some file cards. Discussion threads elsewhere have made me scratch my head on a few issues.
According to Wikipedia (it's on the internet so it must be correct!), there are badges not just for small arms, but also for tank gunnery, artillery and so on. Zap (M-72 (LAW Rocket); XM-71A (TOW Missile); XM-47 (Dragon Missile)), Cover Girl (LAW rocket, Dragon A/T Missile), Crank Case (TOW) and Bazooka (Dragon Anti-Tank Missile, Milan System, LAW rocket, Recoilless rifle, LAW System and all Warsaw Pact RPG systems) all are noted as being qualified experts on various anti-tank rockets and missiles. 1. Bazooka has Milan. It's a great missile, but not American. Where did he pick that up? Some of the more notable users at that time were the UK, France, and Germany. Does anyone think Bazooka might have done an exchange with any of those nations? 2. Cover Girl isn't actually qualified expert on the missiles fired by the Wolverine, which seems strange. 3. Similarly, none of the armor guys actually are qualified expert on tank weapons. You'd think that Steeler in particular would have scored that, given his work with experimental AFVs. 4. But here's an even stranger one: Cross Country is qualified expert Heavy Laser Cannon - but the HAVOC's blueprints don't list it as having laser cannons. Think he might be a laser guy who could work the HAL when not out driving around in the HAVOC? Anyone have any theories or imaginative ideas to explain any of these? |
06-18-2018, 03:48 PM | #22802 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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Quote:
The other thing about marksmanship badges is it seems they classify them as a board range of weapons (such as rifle) versus specific weapons within that category (such as M-16). So Clutch, who is qualified with both an M-14 and M-16 would be qualified as Rifle and Zap would be qualified in Rocket Launcher versus TOW and LAW specifically (at least that is how I read it).
But I think you're right that Clutch would just get "Rifle" for M-16 and M-14, even if he qualified with both. On the Wikipedia page I don't see "grenade launcher," so I'm not sure how Clutch (and others - including Zap!) would get M-79 (or M203 or other variants). |
06-23-2018, 05:03 PM | #22803 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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Snake Eyes: Definitely not my favorite character, but more due to overexposure and the shift from commando to ninja (and the comics continually setting his face on fire) than the concept. I like the idea of a black-clad highly competent ruthless killer on a team like Joe.
Anyway, his first file card is pretty vague on his background. He's basically good at everything ("Has received extensive training in mountaineering, underwater demolitions, jungle, desert and arctic survival, and some form of holistic medicine."). His second file card says that he was on the Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols. That makes sense for a military background coming into a team like Joe. His v3 file card says that he was both Ranger qualified AND did the Recondo course before joining the LRRPs. That seems odd to me. My understanding of the Recondo course was that it was an in-country course run by Ranger-qualified Green Berets for non-Ranger qualified personnel (sounds like something the character Recondo would have done). It was shorter, but more Vietnam-focused than the Ranger course. It seems strange to me, and a bit of a waste of time, that someone would have done both courses since Recondo was basically a repetition of Ranger. The Ranger course would have been a good entry to the mountaineering and jungle and desert survival. Maybe he did an exchange with a SEAL team (I'm guessing that happens) to pick up the UDT stuff. Anyway, the cards sort of explain his skills, but also seem to indicate more repetition in training than breadth of training. |
06-23-2018, 05:25 PM | #22804 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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A number of Joe file cards are written up with Vietnam backgrounds, which in some cases are developed in the comic. Stalker and Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow were LRRPs, and Stalker and Snake Eyes were in MACV SOG in 1968. Wild Bill was a LRRP. Shipwreck was in the Mekong, Spirit did something unspecified, Leatherneck was in 1st Recon Battalion, Breaker was in Project Delta, Mainframe was in an Airborne unit around '74. Duke joined Special Forces in 69 and worked with tribesmen. I'm sure there are a couple of others I've forgotten.
The above list touches on some of the various esoteric activities in Nam - LRRPs, riverine units, Green Berets raising indigenous forces, Project Delta . . . but there's a major omission: The Son Tay Prison raid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivory_Coast). This was a complete failure as it turned out there weren't any prisoners there at the time of the raid, but was conducted by Green Berets in 1970, and it has had a major influence on US SOF culture ever since. Doesn't it seem weird that for all the Vietnam influence on Joe, no Joes were associated with this raid? |
06-25-2018, 06:56 AM | #22805 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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Quote:
Snake Eyes: Definitely not my favorite character, but more due to overexposure and the shift from commando to ninja (and the comics continually setting his face on fire) than the concept. I like the idea of a black-clad highly competent ruthless killer on a team like Joe.
Anyway, his first file card is pretty vague on his background. He's basically good at everything ("Has received extensive training in mountaineering, underwater demolitions, jungle, desert and arctic survival, and some form of holistic medicine."). His second file card says that he was on the Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols. That makes sense for a military background coming into a team like Joe. His v3 file card says that he was both Ranger qualified AND did the Recondo course before joining the LRRPs. That seems odd to me. My understanding of the Recondo course was that it was an in-country course run by Ranger-qualified Green Berets for non-Ranger qualified personnel (sounds like something the character Recondo would have done). It was shorter, but more Vietnam-focused than the Ranger course. It seems strange to me, and a bit of a waste of time, that someone would have done both courses since Recondo was basically a repetition of Ranger. The Ranger course would have been a good entry to the mountaineering and jungle and desert survival. Maybe he did an exchange with a SEAL team (I'm guessing that happens) to pick up the UDT stuff. Anyway, the cards sort of explain his skills, but also seem to indicate more repetition in training than breadth of training. I wholeheartedly agree that Snake-Eyes is way overused. Then I read in another thread something about the new Hama comics killed SE off and put some female version in there to continue on with his legacy or something? No thanks Jeff... That aside I always thought his first filecard read more like a Navy SEAL than anything else, especially the "underwater demolitions" part. I could see him doing some sort of exchange program with the SEALs. Not sure if a SCUBA-qualified Special Forces Engineer Sergeant would have any training in underwater demolitions or not but I thought that would be closest to an Army equivalent to a SEAL. Quote:
A number of Joe file cards are written up with Vietnam backgrounds, which in some cases are developed in the comic. Stalker and Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow were LRRPs, and Stalker and Snake Eyes were in MACV SOG in 1968. Wild Bill was a LRRP. Shipwreck was in the Mekong, Spirit did something unspecified, Leatherneck was in 1st Recon Battalion, Breaker was in Project Delta, Mainframe was in an Airborne unit around '74. Duke joined Special Forces in 69 and worked with tribesmen. I'm sure there are a couple of others I've forgotten.
The above list touches on some of the various esoteric activities in Nam - LRRPs, riverine units, Green Berets raising indigenous forces, Project Delta . . . but there's a major omission: The Son Tay Prison raid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivory_Coast). This was a complete failure as it turned out there weren't any prisoners there at the time of the raid, but was conducted by Green Berets in 1970, and it has had a major influence on US SOF culture ever since. Doesn't it seem weird that for all the Vietnam influence on Joe, no Joes were associated with this raid? Since I am "modernizing" my Joes all of those involved in Southeast Asian conflicts are going to be Afghanistan instead of Vietnam. Shipwreck I may make him fighting pirates off the Horn of Africa instead of the Mekong. |
06-25-2018, 08:13 AM | #22806 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Are you making Shipwreck a SWCC? That might be the only place we know of where they currently operate. Unless there is some unknown action in the Philippines or something.
As for the Son Tay Raid. It was a failure so what's the point of having guys from that operation? Other than Duke, Colton, Claymore, no one else is a Green Beret from that era so that sort of limits who is involved. Keel-Haul and Payload maybe as pilots could have been involved though? Operation Eagle Claw may have had some Joes though? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw It's a little later, and a BIGGER failure, which could have led to the formation of the Joes, had a Snake-Eyes backstory tie-in (with the disfigurement, this may have been Hama's inspiration?) Either way, both missions were led in part by this guy, probably the closest thing to DUKE in real life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Meadows . .
__________________
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
06-25-2018, 02:09 PM | #22807 |
Commando
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Britain
Posts: 3,825
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Shipwreck could've served in a brown water capacity in Iraq on the Euphrates or Tigris rivers or around the Al-Faw peninsula. Pretty sure I read something once about anti-smuggling ops trying to thwart Iranians supplying militias in Iraq.
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06-25-2018, 10:27 PM | #22808 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
|
Quote:
Are you making Shipwreck a SWCC? That might be the only place we know of where they currently operate. Unless there is some unknown action in the Philippines or something.
As for the Son Tay Raid. It was a failure so what's the point of having guys from that operation? Other than Duke, Colton, Claymore, no one else is a Green Beret from that era so that sort of limits who is involved. Keel-Haul and Payload maybe as pilots could have been involved though? Operation Eagle Claw may have had some Joes though? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw It's a little later, and a BIGGER failure, which could have led to the formation of the Joes, had a Snake-Eyes backstory tie-in (with the disfigurement, this may have been Hama's inspiration?) Either way, both missions were led in part by this guy, probably the closest thing to DUKE in real life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Meadows . . And Major Meadows sounds almost exactly like Duke....the only difference being that he actually took a commission. lol That's not a bad idea either. |
06-25-2018, 10:36 PM | #22809 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
|
Quote:
That aside I always thought his first filecard read more like a Navy SEAL than anything else, especially the "underwater demolitions" part. I could see him doing some sort of exchange program with the SEALs. Not sure if a SCUBA-qualified Special Forces Engineer Sergeant would have any training in underwater demolitions or not but I thought that would be closest to an Army equivalent to a SEAL.
Either A) Hama hadn't thought about it, B) the names of those involved are classified or C) the possibility of even one member of the Joes being involved with that operation (when there was a small number involved in the first place) would be slim to none. Since I am "modernizing" my Joes all of those involved in Southeast Asian conflicts are going to be Afghanistan instead of Vietnam. Shipwreck I may make him fighting pirates off the Horn of Africa instead of the Mekong. Quote:
As for the Son Tay Raid. It was a failure so what's the point of having guys from that operation? Other than Duke, Colton, Claymore, no one else is a Green Beret from that era so that sort of limits who is involved. Keel-Haul and Payload maybe as pilots could have been involved though? Operation Eagle Claw may have had some Joes though? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw It's a little later, and a BIGGER failure, which could have led to the formation of the Joes, had a Snake-Eyes backstory tie-in (with the disfigurement, this may have been Hama's inspiration?) Either way, both missions were led in part by this guy, probably the closest thing to DUKE in real life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Meadows . . EAGLE CLAW is the clear inspiration for Snake Eyes' injury (albeit in a Huey instead of a Stallion), and you're right - it was a monumental failure. Probably the biggest since Bay of Pigs (Mogadishu - Black Hawk Down may be a distant third, or perhaps the fiasco in Beirut). Hama doesn't have too many Joes dating back to the Son Tay time, but it was still a pretty big deal and I remain surprised that it never got a mention. john shaft - if you're modernizing I can see Flint riding horses in Afghanistan, Stalker jumping on Kandahar, Snake Eyes being in one of the Chinooks that got shot down (or injured in the near-miss bomb on Karzai) and then taking Saddam in Iraq, and Torpedo capping OBL. Recondo and Shipwreck feel left out in the Philippines, and Wet Suit is trying to catch up by rescuing Captain Phillips. |
06-26-2018, 08:10 AM | #22810 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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Quote:
I think some Army divers do underwater demo, but likely not to the extent that SEALs do.
EAGLE CLAW is the clear inspiration for Snake Eyes' injury (albeit in a Huey instead of a Stallion), and you're right - it was a monumental failure. Probably the biggest since Bay of Pigs (Mogadishu - Black Hawk Down may be a distant third, or perhaps the fiasco in Beirut). Hama doesn't have too many Joes dating back to the Son Tay time, but it was still a pretty big deal and I remain surprised that it never got a mention. john shaft - if you're modernizing I can see Flint riding horses in Afghanistan, Stalker jumping on Kandahar, Snake Eyes being in one of the Chinooks that got shot down (or injured in the near-miss bomb on Karzai) and then taking Saddam in Iraq, and Torpedo capping OBL. Recondo and Shipwreck feel left out in the Philippines, and Wet Suit is trying to catch up by rescuing Captain Phillips. I know a lot of people use him as an individual operator but I have always liked team-based stories. I think that is why I have never been a fan of superheroes as they mostly perform alone. Although the X-Men is the closest that I have come to actually enjoying superheroes except that they saturate it with Wolverine. Bottom line is if I want to watch a super-human lone hero I will read or watch a superhero-based book or movie. If I want to see a tight-knit unit working as a team I will read or watch a military-themed book or movie. |
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