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04-01-2018, 02:26 AM | #22661 |
Commando
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Britain
Posts: 3,827
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Pretty sure no one was an expert with the MP5. Which seemed weird to me. Also weird was the Joes being M3 experts when I'm pretty sure the Grease Gun was out of service in the 1950s.
*checks Wiki* Oh. Quote:
The M3 and M3A1 were largely withdrawn from U.S. frontline service beginning in 1959 and into the early 1960s, but continued to be used until the mid-1990s as on vehicle equipment aboard armored vehicles. During the mid 1970s tank drivers of the 1st Battalion 67th Armored attached to the 2nd Armored Division were issued the M3A1, because of its size and portability.[citation needed] During the Gulf War, drivers of the 19th Engineer Battalion attached to the 1st Armored Division were equipped with the M3A1 as part of their vehicle TOE.[citation needed] It was also the initial submachine gun equipping the Delta Force who prized it for its impressively quiet performance when equipped with a silencer.[19]
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04-01-2018, 11:00 AM | #22662 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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^ yeah - the '70's and early '80's were an interesting time for small arms in counter-terrorism units. The '72 Munich Olympics massacre prompted the Europeans to devote a lot more focus on CT concept development than the Americans (I'd say that after 9/11 the Americans have taken the lead in the concept development), but a lot of the weapons were old designs. Like the M3. Or the Sten, which apparently was in use for quite some time with Brit and American units (https://medium.com/war-is-boring/bri...s-204725f22764 and https://jackmurphywrites.com/84/birt...t-delta-force/). That was back before soldiers looked like Robocop (https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/w...3x6o1_1280.jpg - those guys look a lot like the OG13!)
I think there's also a certain irony that the US kept the M3 for armored units, but Steeler isn't actually qualified expert on that gun! He gets MAC-10 and Uzi instead. Go figure. Anyway, I think that post-Munich era is around the time that SMGs went from being guns meant for high volume with a large cone of fire (good for trench clearing, urban warfare, and jungle warfare) to being precision hostage-rescue weapons with minimal collateral damage (like bullets continuing through walls to hit people on the other side). |
04-01-2018, 11:25 AM | #22663 |
Megalomaniac
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Forest Grove, PA
Posts: 539
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I'm late the the Blueshirt/Viper discussion, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway.
One of the things that has been brought up is how the various filecards contradict each other, especially the Cobra Soldier's first filecard. The way I reconcile this in my head is by figuring the information on the filecards would change as Cobra grows (although the file cards often didn't change, as LowTech pointed out above showing the lack of progression for Clutch and Zap regarding rank/qualification). So in 1982 all Cobras are either Soldiers or Officers, which would mean there would be a wide variety of skill/experience/etc within those two groups, which helps to explain the broad range of roles each has listed on their filecard. As Cobra grows and expands, different groups form out of the Soldiers/Officers. For example, in the Officer's filecard it mentions they are spies. In 1982 that is where Cobra's spies were placed. By 1985 Cobra's spy network had grown so big that it needed to be its own entity, and those Cobra Officers traded in their blue uniforms for new red Crimson Guard uniforms. I feel as though the same happened to the Soldier. In 1986 the blueshirts who were serving in Cobra's infantry got new gear, new uniforms, and new codenames: Vipers. I believe Hasbro intended to replace the Cobra Soldier with the Viper and that is what I essentially did as a kid back in the vintage era. So, by 85/86 the Soldier and Officer filecards are no longer accurate descriptions of those Cobras, even if there still are Soldiers and Officers that exist. This wasn't a problem for me as a kid because like I said I simply didn't use those figures any more. As an adult collector of the anniversary figures though, we have so many Blueshirts AND Vipers that it would be a waste for me not to use both simultaneously. So when it comes to the Modern Era, I follow closer to the Army/Marines idea. Cobra soldiers are my standard grunt while Vipers are my assault troopers. I REALLY like what others have said on here about Soldiers being generic Cobra recruits while Vipers are recruits with military experience. That makes a lot of sense and I think I will incorporate that into my Joeverse.
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04-01-2018, 10:24 PM | #22664 |
Iron Grenadier
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 590
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I can only speak for USAF Security Police/Forces, but while at the Security Academy apart of the training was a week or two going through Weapons Training. There we qualified on the M16, M203, M249 & if chosen the M60. We also spent a day learning the LAW rocket, setting up Claymore Mines & throwing Grenades.
This was in the mid-90s so Security and Law Enforcement were two different things under the Security Police umbrella. Law Enforcement only qualified on the M9 Beretta & shotgun I believe. It wasn't until years later when they combined the two that we were cross trained on the others weapons. We qualified once a year on each weapon we used. If u didn't qualify then u didn't carry that weapon. When the two sides merged us security guys carried either M16s or M4s depending on post. M16s at the Gates and M4s on patrol until we were sent to qualify on the M9. If you were lucky you would be at a base that had you qualify on the Mark 19. Idk if that helps anyone, I admit I started having nostalgia while typing. So sorry if I went off course too much. |
04-02-2018, 12:04 PM | #22665 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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Quote:
I can only speak for USAF Security Police/Forces, but while at the Security Academy apart of the training was a week or two going through Weapons Training. There we qualified on the M16, M203, M249 & if chosen the M60. We also spent a day learning the LAW rocket, setting up Claymore Mines & throwing Grenades.
This was in the mid-90s so Security and Law Enforcement were two different things under the Security Police umbrella. Law Enforcement only qualified on the M9 Beretta & shotgun I believe. It wasn't until years later when they combined the two that we were cross trained on the others weapons. We qualified once a year on each weapon we used. If u didn't qualify then u didn't carry that weapon. When the two sides merged us security guys carried either M16s or M4s depending on post. M16s at the Gates and M4s on patrol until we were sent to qualify on the M9. If you were lucky you would be at a base that had you qualify on the Mark 19. Idk if that helps anyone, I admit I started having nostalgia while typing. So sorry if I went off course too much. On a completely different note, just came across this, for all of you trying to organize your Joe teams: hhttp://www.yojoe.com/archive/magazines/officialhandbook87.shtml Now, this official Joe handbook has some flaws in it, but is still a somewhat interesting take on structure. It also has (along with the newsletter: YOJOE.COM | Magazines) a few interesting tactics lessons. |
04-02-2018, 12:38 PM | #22666 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Interesting how they have Duke as a Lt. Colonel or Major, which of course makes sense with how he was portrayed. But then they have Maverick leading a Platoon and Payload leading a Brigade.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
04-02-2018, 12:58 PM | #22667 |
Great White Northerner
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canadian Imperium
Posts: 1,432
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04-02-2018, 01:17 PM | #22668 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Yeah That I know, but in one of the two backgrounds for Zartan (in either DDP or IDW) they made him part of the French military. Sort of matching up with what was written on the Filecards.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
04-02-2018, 02:13 PM | #22669 |
Shabba
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: England
Posts: 1,352
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How do you guys fit Duke into your Joe team structures?
I’ve recently re-read Rainbow Six and like the structure of the team. In the book, one of the characters is a squad leader and a “simulated” major. In effect he was a staff sergeant who was recruited into the CIA and when Rainbow Six was created he essentially became a major. I’m thinking of using Duke in a similar manner. He often seemed a bit bland in the ARAH comics and I never really warmed to him. I liked the Battle Action Force origin for Duke being recruited and thinking what if it was the CIA he joined. It would also fit a bit with the DDP version of Duke. |
04-02-2018, 02:20 PM | #22670 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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Quote:
Quote:
How do you guys fit Duke into your Joe team structures?
I’ve recently re-read Rainbow Six and like the structure of the team. In the book, one of the characters is a squad leader and a “simulated” major. In effect he was a staff sergeant who was recruited into the CIA and when Rainbow Six was created he essentially became a major. I’m thinking of using Duke in a similar manner. He often seemed a bit bland in the ARAH comics and I never really warmed to him. I liked the Battle Action Force origin for Duke being recruited and thinking what if it was the CIA he joined. It would also fit a bit with the DDP version of Duke. |
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