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06-23-2016, 06:26 PM | #21011 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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Quote:
Fair enough, and I buy that for a force that only does direct action. But I not everyone joining a Tier 1 force is going to have all that stuff already, and I can see some key elements (CQC SOPSs, free fall, emergency tactical medicine . . .) being included in the operator course. I think I remember reading in Haney's book on Delta Force that all new operators were trained as snipers and employed as such - only once they were established did they move to assault positions (so perhaps it was an urban sniping course as opposed to a "green" sniper course). For other skills they don't have the resources to train in-house they could just send operators to existing schools or contract it out. But . . . I'm sure I remember seeing somewhere (not Wikipedia!) that the SAS L Det included some civilians with specialised skills that might be useful in niche situations. I can see that for certain covert ops or strategic reconnaissance missions where trigger-pulling is a minor consideration (ethnic background/ language skill may be more important in some cases than military skill). I wouldn't be surprised if the Intelligence Support Activity has a few geek-ninjas recruited in straight from the civilian world.
But I can't actually think of many Joes who fall into that category (at least based on how their file cards are written). Snow Job and Quick Kick . . . Any others? Shockwave and Bullhorn come to mind of Joes that seem like they came straight from civilian life. I am still making Shockwave a former US Army MP and Bullhorn I am leaning towards a former Marine but I may introduce civilians in my Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Squadron. I think you are correct about Delta training all of their Operators in sniping. If I remember correctly they had them analyze a model of a building and designated the sides of it as different colors (white was back or front, red was one side or something to that effect). |
06-23-2016, 07:25 PM | #21012 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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Quote:
Excellent points. That is an great idea about using civilian Intelligence agents for operations that may not have qualified Joe team members for. I may have to rethink some of the Joes that I "fired" from my Joe-verse (Taurus, Red Dog, all of the ninja's, to name a few).
Shockwave and Bullhorn come to mind of Joes that seem like they came straight from civilian life. I am still making Shockwave a former US Army MP and Bullhorn I am leaning towards a former Marine but I may introduce civilians in my Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Squadron. I think you are correct about Delta training all of their Operators in sniping. If I remember correctly they had them analyze a model of a building and designated the sides of it as different colors (white was back or front, red was one side or something to that effect). Given that Delta have done so much work with the FBI HRT, it stands to reason they may have interacted with some other SWAT teams too, especially in some of the more violent cities. If someone had a particular aptitude for urban assault where the objective is NOT to kill everyone inside, but rather to bring them out in handcuffs I can see a Tier 1 unit poaching that individual to advise or even lead missions where the aim is to snatch an unwilling someone rather than rescue a hostage or simply kill everyone. TO that end, both Shockwave and Bullhorn actually seem stronger if they come from a tough city police force (or the FBI) than from the military police which . . . let's be honest, probably spends more time busting speeders on post than knocking down doors. On the other end of the legal spectrum, several Joes had interesting previous careers, but I'm disappointed none were repo guys. It'd be cool to have someone on hand who was an "approved" thief! |
06-24-2016, 10:22 AM | #21013 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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I just can't go with non-military personnel in the Ranks. I have mostly done away with the Ninjas (Although all are world class Martial Artist). They are Commandos like Snake-Eyes. Amazon's Ninja Dojo Battle Set Roadblock is my Dojo. Grooming standards for this unit are one thing, but Weapons training is so important, I don't know if I can go with a civvy off the street. No matter what skills they possess.
I like the point of the former law enforcement types making it in, as opposed to the typical MPs who probably are ill-versed in HRT tactics, but the military has plenty of SRT units. Ones who are geared more towards Terrorists than just lone gunman, and guys going postal, than a typical SWAT team. FBI HRT being an acception, but all the training they do is with Delta, SEALs, and Marine Sniper school. And the Joes have plenty of those guys. However Posse Comitatus is one thing though, which they Joes could use an FBI, or US Marshall (Bullet-Proof), and now Coast Guard presence to get around. Then there are SAD guys who would most likely be around a unit like the Joes.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
06-24-2016, 01:23 PM | #21014 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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Yeah, I'm with Loose. I can't see any civilians going on any actual operations with the Joes other than as an advisor and non-combatant (except in extremis / self defense).
I can definitely see contracted civilians working in support roles (logistics, intelligence, communications, physical security etc) but nothing operational. If the assumption is that the Joes are a special mission unit, then they are prosecuting operations that entail national importance. Operators in the field will have to have the maturity and organized training to make decision in the field that can and will affect national security. To say nothing about the uniformed code or a structured, transparent chain of command if things go pear shaped. I could see civilian contractors operating thru a national level intelligence agency but for that's a different story |
06-24-2016, 02:28 PM | #21015 |
Commando
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Britain
Posts: 3,827
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I assume that the ninjas all had some form of military training, as well as Budo, Quick Kick et al. Likewise, whilst I firmly believe Bullhorn are Feds, Bulletproof is DEA and Shockwave muunicipal SWAT and Barbecue a civvy firefighter, I assume they went through some form of US Army training prior to their time in the G.I. Joe team.
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06-25-2016, 06:48 AM | #21016 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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The only ninja's/martial artists I have on my Joe team are Scarlett, Snake-Eyes, Quick-Kick and Jinx. However I emphasize their military backgrounds first (Scarlett, Quick-Kick and Jinx being part of the Intelligence field and Snake-Eyes being Infantryman turned Special Forces). I "fired" Dojo, Nunchuk, T'Jbang, Banzai, Bushido, T'Gin-Zu, Kamakura and Tiger Claw. I had stopped reading the comics in '87 (when I was in junior high) so I lost touch with G.I.Joe for about 20 years (when I started noticing the 25th line) so I never knew all these ninja's even existed. Now that I know about them I am still not hip to the idea of ninja's, it just seems so dated. So I will probably keep them on my "fired" list (except for the four I originally noted).
On a side note I just started reading the IDW comics (continuity from Marvel) series reviews over at YoJoe this morning. I have only ever read the original Marvel series up to issue 61 (and even then I never owned all the issues leading up to that one, maybe had 20 comics total?). I never knew about Arbco Security Systems. I bring this up because a few years ago (and without ever knowing) I fashioned my Cobra team as a PMC and called their front company "Arbco Security Services" which I later changed to "Arbco Security Corporation" due to not wanting the acronym being "A.S.S". lol Last edited by john shaft; 06-25-2016 at 06:51 AM.. |
06-25-2016, 08:13 AM | #21017 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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Quote:
Yeah, I'm with Loose. I can't see any civilians going on any actual operations with the Joes other than as an advisor and non-combatant (except in extremis / self defense).
I can definitely see contracted civilians working in support roles (logistics, intelligence, communications, physical security etc) but nothing operational. If the assumption is that the Joes are a special mission unit, then they are prosecuting operations that entail national importance. Operators in the field will have to have the maturity and organized training to make decision in the field that can and will affect national security. To say nothing about the uniformed code or a structured, transparent chain of command if things go pear shaped. I could see civilian contractors operating thru a national level intelligence agency but for that's a different story Scenario 1 (from one of McChyrstal's books): Seals take out a maritime installation with a radar on it. MC130s fly through that corridor, dropping Rangers who seize a small airfield. More MC130s land, disgorging a Delta team and M and AH6s that are quickly assembled. These fly the Delta team to a nearby objective. Strike. Withdraw in reverse. Scenario 2: A small team enters a foreign country on commercial airliners. They make cultivate a couple of local sources, acquire safe houses and local cars. They conduct close observation of a target and build the target package. A second team arrives, sets up in the safe houses, is briefed by the reconnaissance team. The second team then strikes, withdraws. The reconnaissance team disposes of equipment and withdraws. In scenario 1 everyone needs to be military. But what about scenario 2? Is the reconnaissance team "operational?" I'd say they are, but I'd also say that the job could be done by civilians or a mil/civ mix. It's often done by other agencies, but there are times when it's in Joe's interest to do it themselves. |
06-25-2016, 09:24 AM | #21018 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Scenario 2 nails it. Joe would be engaged in these type of activities. Not sure but that sounds like the Activity type operations. I don't know the makeup of ISA, if there are civilians.
CIA also does this. I think they did all this same sort groundwork in Afghanistan. Do they use locally engaged staff to blend in? Military types tend to stand out. So the need is definitely there, so anyway you set it up works. An external government agency or an organic team.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. Last edited by Loose Cannon; 06-25-2016 at 09:27 AM.. |
06-29-2016, 07:23 AM | #21019 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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I see the Joes engaging in both Scenario 1 and 2 operations. I agree civilians could be used in scenario 2 but definitely not in 1. However I do not know if my Joe team will actually employ civilian workers but rather work with civilians on scenario 2 type of missions. Taurus is a good example. I will probably use him as an agent working for a Turkish intelligence agency. The Joes will work with him during certain missions that take place in the middle-east. He can help establish safe-houses and such.
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06-29-2016, 09:42 AM | #21020 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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Guess, I should have clarified, from what I said a while back. There's a big difference between 'civilians' from other government agencies / law enforcement like we're currently discussing and working with I don't know, say a half naked stunt man one just happens to bump into, in the middle of the Arctic like in the cartoon, LOL.
In the context of scenario 2, the civilian attachments will probably have as much (or more) training than the operators themselves. My roster which I'm currently populating will have an absolute ton of civilian contractors, inter-agency personnel and the like. By doing so, I can get rid or 'outsource' a ton of support positions especially in the supply, maintenance, contracting and aviation side of things. |
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