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03-22-2016, 10:11 PM | #20601 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Quote:
Okay Zulu so I let some of this sink in, but I might need a glossary. Instead of a ODA team with, 2 weapons Sgts, 2 engineers, 2 medics and 2 comm Sgts, you have: 2 x Ordnance (heavy Weapons?) 2 X ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance, Recon?) 2 x SOCM (Combat Medic) 2 x C-E (this is the one that stumps me. Combat Engineering?) Is this similar to any other unit setup? I see Level Zero Heroes mentioned a few times here. Anyone recommend it?
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
03-22-2016, 10:53 PM | #20602 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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Level Zero Heroes was okay, it wasn't the best. The author is an ex-Artillery guy turned JTAC.
In the early parts of the book, its clear he has a slight inferiority complex when comparing himself to the Critical Skills Operators he's working with. It gets better as he gains confidence (and in some instances a bit of over confidence if you ask me - the way he treats a non-JTAC trained ROMAD is poor IMHO) and I guess its part of the narrative of him growing as a writer / operator as the tale progresses. He has a sequel in the works and I'm hoping its a bit better. |
03-22-2016, 11:21 PM | #20603 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Thanks! It's nice to be back.
Quote:
Okay Zulu so I let some of this sink in, but I might need a glossary. Instead of a ODA team with, 2 weapons Sgts, 2 engineers, 2 medics and 2 comm Sgts,
you have: 2 x Ordnance (heavy Weapons?) 2 X ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance, Recon?) 2 x SOCM (Combat Medic) 2 x C-E (this is the one that stumps me. Combat Engineering?) Is this similar to any other unit setup?
I based the breakdown of small unit responsibilities on how the SEAL platoon is described in the fourth edition of the JSOU's Special Operations Forces Manual. The manual describes the platoon as having individual SEALs specializing in one or more of the seven departmental skills:
In the Kapusta thesis I mentioned in an earlier post, he describes the SEAL platoon setup as basically a case where you've got a senior SEAL and a junior SEAL are paired together in one of the seven departments, with the former serving as a sort of mentor to the latter. I imagine that's still the case today even with the modern three-squad SEAL platoon setup (except now you've got one mentor and two nominal "apprentices"). What I've done differently with the JSOT setup, though, is separate the SEAL Ordnance departmental specialization into two: there's Ordnance (which focuses on demolitions/limited combat engineering proficiency) and there's Weapons (which focuses on individual and crew-served SALW proficiency). The reason I did so is to accommodate how Army SF and MARSOC view the two as functionally separate specializations: SF actually has them as separate MOSes—you've got your SF Engineer Sergeant and your SF Weapons Sergeant, while MARSOC (according to the JSOU manual) considers weapons and ordnance as distinct individual specialty skills tracks. From a staffing standpoint, keeping Ordnance and Weapons separate specializationss makes it easier to "plug in" personnel in a JSOT Operator slot regardless of the service they come from. |
03-23-2016, 02:35 AM | #20604 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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So would a guy like Bazooka or Zap fill an ordinance slot or Roadblock?
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
03-23-2016, 04:54 AM | #20605 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Quote:
Bazooka and Roadblock strike me more as Weapons slot guys. |
03-23-2016, 07:16 AM | #20606 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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Quote:
Also since there are no officers in the Combat Support Element and the Communications Support Element who do they report to as far as chain of command? I was unaware, did it indicate when they started to use six? It seems like they did so well with just the 4-man patrol concept for so many years it makes me wonder why they changed it? From what I understand four men is the minimum for room clearing. I would also think organizations such as Delta would stick to a four-man element, especially in cases where they insert via the MH-6 Littlebird, which to my understanding only holds four people on the skids. |
03-23-2016, 08:06 AM | #20607 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,294
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Quote:
I was unaware, did it indicate when they started to use six? It seems like they did so well with just the 4-man patrol concept for so many years it makes me wonder why they changed it? From what I understand four men is the minimum for room clearing. I would also think organizations such as Delta would stick to a four-man element, especially in cases where they insert via the MH-6 Littlebird, which to my understanding only holds four people on the skids.
The reason in the increase in size is usually attributed to the change in mission orientated equipment. The equipment is smaller than in years past but there's simply more of it; IR strobes, portable laptops, cameras, laser range finders, tons of spare batteries, extra SAT radios, etc. In terms of SR missions, 6 men makes it easier to observe and record 24/7 than 4 as it means there's more security and less sleep deprivation for the guys. Last edited by Tyroc; 03-23-2016 at 08:08 AM.. |
03-23-2016, 12:28 PM | #20608 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,586
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Surely these things are always changing? And there may be a difference between what they train for and what they end up using?
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03-23-2016, 01:42 PM | #20609 |
EQ-Viper
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,343
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Quote:
The Intelligence Officer in the Intelligence Support Element is an actual Military Intelligence-coded position. He/She is an MI officer who directly oversees the actual intelligence collection and analysis performed by MI personnel. Without getting into a lengthy discussion about the differences between ADCON, OPCON, TACON, and Support, let's say that for the purposes of functional deployment, they answer to the GI Joe leadership by virtue of a formal relationship between GI Joe and an equivalent or higher echelon combat support/combat service support organization, sort of like the relationship that exists between, say, an Army Ranger company and the Air Force Squadron supplying it with enlisted TACP personnel. At this point, I'm just taking for granted that GI Joe has an external CS/CSS organization and they have some sort of formal support relationship under JSOC. It would be too much work (for me, at least) to try to come up with a detailed, imagined account of that (I like charts and organizational outlines and all that stuff, but that starts to sound too much like real work ). |
03-23-2016, 07:45 PM | #20610 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: over here
Posts: 2,092
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Quote:
I don't have a link handy, but with regards to the example you brought up, I'm using a 2001 Army SOF Intelligence manual as a guide, although I've tweaked some of the ideas a bit to better fit the (fictional) GI Joe premise. The headquarters Intelligence Officer is a staff position—it is filled by an SOF officer who is in charge of the headquarter's S2 functions.
The Intelligence Officer in the Intelligence Support Element is an actual Military Intelligence-coded position. He/She is an MI officer who directly oversees the actual intelligence collection and analysis performed by MI personnel. Without getting into a lengthy discussion about the differences between ADCON, OPCON, TACON, and Support, let's say that for the purposes of functional deployment, they answer to the GI Joe leadership by virtue of a formal relationship between GI Joe and an equivalent or higher echelon combat support/combat service support organization, sort of like the relationship that exists between, say, an Army Ranger company and the Air Force Squadron supplying it with enlisted TACP personnel. At this point, I'm just taking for granted that GI Joe has an external CS/CSS organization and they have some sort of formal support relationship under JSOC. It would be too much work (for me, at least) to try to come up with a detailed, imagined account of that (I like charts and organizational outlines and all that stuff, but that starts to sound too much like real work ). Thanks for the clarification on the two Intelligence officers. It sounds like the S2 billet can be filled by any MOS (and not necessarily an actual officer from the MI branch) so long as they have some sort of SOF experience? Do you know if it is normal U.S. Army procedure to fill S2 positions with non-MI Officers? The second part makes sense. This leaves all of the overhead out of it. I am really liking the setup you outlined. One question though (more out of curiosity than anything) why did you go with a 14-man unit versus the "traditional" 16-man? It seems Delta, SAS, and the SEAL's use (or used) the 16-man Troop/Platoon concept (which I was doing with my Joes) so was wondering why you went with fourteen instead. |
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