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02-12-2016, 04:54 PM | #20381 |
disgruntled goat
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NYS- Finger Lakes
Posts: 2,110
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I'm thinking FIM-92 Stinger for Backblast and M47 Dragon for Fast Draw.
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02-12-2016, 05:33 PM | #20382 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Quote:
Well . . . no. There's a reason Short Fuze had a 60mm mortar - it's a one-man weapon. An 81mm mortar needs 3 guys just to carry the tube, bipod and baseplate, never mind the ammo. And once it's set up there's a reason for having a crew: speed. Everyone has a job and does it at the same time. If the tasks are done sequentially then you'll have a rate of fire slower than a medieval siege cannon.
As for a towed howitzer, those are heavy beasts and require a team just to get them in position. I guess one massive guy could, with lots of effort and the help of a wich and a jack, unhitch one and set it up. It would take a while longer to calculate traverse and elevation and apply that to the gun. Then he'd have to set the right fuses and charges. Then he'd have to load. Then double check the gun. Then fire. Then get another round, prep it, load it, confirm corrections to traverse and elevation, apply them, fire . . . Doable . . . but in the time it takes to do that a trained crew could have fired off a dozen rounds, moved to a new location, and be firing a second mission. If a special forces unit is doing a raid and thinks it will need some quick, local fire support, it makes sense to dedicate a team to a couple of mortars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Pebble_Island being an example). Otherwise, it makes more sense to have a conventional artillery unit/naval gunfire support/close air support lined up to provide fire support. The Joe artillery pieces make sense from a sales-for-Hasbro perspective, but make little sense from a force employment perspective. No as much as I like the FLAK, Whirlwind and the Mountain Howitzer, the Joes have no practical use for conventional Artillery. One man Mortars of course fit in nicely for offensive purposes. Perhaps the FLAK and Whirlwind though, which seem to be completely automated as far as tracking targets and loading goes. The Howitzer no. (Still Love that thing though.) I guess the Thunder Clap would have a crew of at least three. BUt who knows how large that "Annihilator" Cannon is. 300mm? 400mm? 30 mile range. They could be sitting way back from the action. Same with the General's Mortar Cannon I guess. Who knows how big that is? I guess I wonder how long before more of the crew's positions will be automated in some way? Driver-Gunner-Loader = Thunder! What about the Lynx and the Slugger? I guess with it being part of the vehicle positioning the Artillery is easier since one would be able to drive it into position. What is the purpose of 2 Gunners and 2 Loaders like the M110? plus a driver. I see most of these Self-Propelled need a supply vehicle with an additional crew of 3, but imagine if you only need 10 shots and that's it. I doubt there is room inside the way they are designed to hold all those, but how hard it is to imagine there could be? At least that is what my 10 year old self is telling me.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
02-12-2016, 07:16 PM | #20383 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,235
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Some of the crew positions are redundant so that the howitzer can operate over 24 hours, but like LowTech said, performance and rates of fire would decrease if operating on a skeleton crew. The cannoneers basically help carry and prepare ammunition, prepare powder charges and load the projectiles on the conveyor. The ammo chief can assume the duties of the gunner who loads the charge and verifies firing data. Typically, even the 60mm mortar has a 3-man squad, although it could be operated by one man in emergencies or special scenarios. It can even be fired from a hand-held position.
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02-12-2016, 08:19 PM | #20384 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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^ yeah, I was really referring to the commando/hand held role of the 60mm mortar. From a bipod you'd want a larger crew. But commando 60s and 51mm mortars firing in the direct role can be slung around by one guy.
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02-12-2016, 09:59 PM | #20385 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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Realistically any Artillery piece the Joes deployed would probably use the whole team of Artillery Joes.
Barrage and Storm Long-Range, Mirage, Short-fuze, Thunder and Downtown. Probably use all the Anti-tank guys as Loaders if there are no Green Shirts. Zap, Salvo, Fast-Draw, Bazooka, Heavy-duty.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. Last edited by Loose Cannon; 02-12-2016 at 10:08 PM.. |
02-13-2016, 12:24 PM | #20386 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toxo-Zombie Land
Posts: 1,728
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Quote:
Realistically any Artillery piece the Joes deployed would probably use the whole team of Artillery Joes.
Barrage and Storm Long-Range, Mirage, Short-fuze, Thunder and Downtown. Probably use all the Anti-tank guys as Loaders if there are no Green Shirts. Zap, Salvo, Fast-Draw, Bazooka, Heavy-duty. Regarding the Mountain Howitzer, the blue prints say it is 105 mm., which (if I'm understanding right) is considered more of a "light gun" and is used by parachute and commando field artillery regiments. From the many pictures I've seen online, only 2 men seem to be needed to operate it. A pair of tripod binoculars came with the toy, so I'm not sure if these would belong to the 2 man crew (as pictured on the Hasbro box) or if a Forward Observer would it. I suspect it belongs to the 2-man crew as a way of verification on hits? Interestingly, the FLAK is also a 105 mm. Howitzer, but seems to be more advanced, though stationary (i.e., a siege Howitzer). The Impel card says it holds 25 rounds and is self-loading. Crazy thing is, I can't see where the loader would place the ammo when it's used up! Last edited by seaneley; 02-13-2016 at 12:46 PM.. |
02-13-2016, 03:20 PM | #20387 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,018
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The mountain howitzer looks like it's the M102 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M102_howitzer), which needs an 8-person crew. I think Loose Cannon (an appropriate handle for conversations about artillery!) is on to the right idea: crew the gun with greenshirts, and have a named character or two to run the gun line.
The crew would use those binos if they were firing in the direct role (they could see the target), but more often they'd be firing indirect (they can't see the target). The binos could be considered a survey instrument (determining where, exactly, the gun is, which is important!) or could be used by a forward observer, who would be the one to see where the rounds land. |
02-13-2016, 05:53 PM | #20388 |
W.O.R.M.S. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Back in the US of A! (NoVA)
Posts: 10,649
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I imagine the Joes could get away with a crew of two for the Howitzer, but at least 4 is more realistic. The M102 is on board the Spectre gunship. There are 4 gunners on the AC-130. Although the binoculars could be more for security purposes. After you fire a few rounds the enemy is going to try and find you.
Good to keep you eyes pealed. I need to pull out all my Joe artillery and see what that would look like. Joe firebase with the: The General Thunderclap SLUGGER Lynx Brawler Howitzer FLAK SLAM HAL and a Whirlwind for Anti-aircraft support.
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Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. |
02-13-2016, 06:54 PM | #20389 |
Crimson Guard
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toxo-Zombie Land
Posts: 1,728
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Quote:
The mountain howitzer looks like it's the M102 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M102_howitzer), which needs an 8-person crew. I think Loose Cannon (an appropriate handle for conversations about artillery!) is on to the right idea: crew the gun with green-shirts, and have a named character or two to run the gun line.
The crew would use those binos if they were firing in the direct role (they could see the target), but more often they'd be firing indirect (they can't see the target). The binos could be considered a survey instrument (determining where, exactly, the gun is, which is important!) or could be used by a forward observer, who would be the one to see where the rounds land. Oh, and because it is considered the "Mountian Howitzer" I'd want to have Alpine involved in some way! Last edited by seaneley; 02-13-2016 at 07:01 PM.. |
02-13-2016, 07:44 PM | #20390 |
Hog Driver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 12,235
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I couldn't find any of the TMs in pdf online but they don't appear to be classified as you can buy them but you'd probably find more info about each crewmwmber's duties in those technical manuals. Here's a example of what the canoneers did with the M2 howitzer.
a. The chief of section is responsible that all duties are properly performed, all commands executed, and all safety precautions observed. b. The gunner sets the announced deflection, lays for direction, and refers the piece. c. No. 1 sets the announced site and range (elevation), opens and closes the breech, and fires the piece. d. No. 2 loads the piece. e. No. 3 operates the fuze setter and makes the proper setting of fuzes. f. No. 4 assists No. 3 in setting fuzes, and passes the rounds to No. 2 for loading. g. No. 5, assisted by Nos. 6 and 7, prepares charges and passes the reassembled round to No. 4. h. Nos. 6 and 7 remove ammunition from the containers and assist No. 5 in preparing charges and reassembling rounds. No. 7 keeps empty cartridge cases out of the way of the cannoneers. |
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